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Original poster

Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

835 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/04/2018 17:37

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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FlaviaAlbia · 07/04/2018 19:01

OK, and possibly this is moving into paranoia but if people join to post inflammatory stuff while purporting to be gender critical then that's a good way to get debate shut down.

picklemepopcorn · 07/04/2018 18:56

It *seems to be holding us to a higher standard that the goady fuckers

I'll take that challenge; it'll just show them up.*

I agree. They go low, we go high. Let them be seen for what they are. We have reason on our side.

FlaviaAlbia · 07/04/2018 18:51

I suppose my point is that everyone who posts will be affected by those breaking the Talk guidelines not just the individual posters...

ZERF · 07/04/2018 18:39

It seems to be holding us to a higher standard that the goady fuckers

I'll take that challenge; it'll just show them up.

ZERF · 07/04/2018 18:38

Or rather

And addressing the view point, while respecting the poster

FlaviaAlbia · 07/04/2018 18:37

I'm a little concerned that the post from MNHQ will be seen as a possible way to shut down discussion here. We know that there's plenty of ranting on twitter about mumsnet allowing gender critical feminists to talk and it worries me that they'll see this as an opportunity to come and goad until someone reacts badly in an effort to get hr topic banned.

It seems to be holding us to a higher standard that the goady fuckers

ZERF · 07/04/2018 18:36

I agree. As soon as it went to twitter it felt uncomfortable. I don't think I used the right words to say what I felt; suggestions here are really good.

DarthArts's ideas are good, and I'm sure have been used before.

I find it helps if you think of yourself as replying 'to' the lurkers rather than to the disengenuous poster

I agree.

And addressing the view point, with respect to the poster, separating the two so it becomes less personal and more about theory,

CATTamongthepigeons · 07/04/2018 18:34

And a message as Darth suggests. Quick moving thread!

CATTamongthepigeons · 07/04/2018 18:33

Okay. I won’t biscuit again. Next time I will do as Bore said and report. That didn’t actually cross my mind. Thanks for the response.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 18:32

Just to add, I'm not sure that not engaging is helpful.

It gives the impression that we don't actually have the facts/points/evidence to back up a GC position.

Agree. And agree we have to be careful and measured in how we do it.

MNHQ
KateMumsnet · 07/04/2018 18:28

@DarthArts

Good post OP.

I think when we see threads that are potentially trying to invite an angry response from our side, the first person who can just posts a quick message reminding everyone to keep it civil and points out that responding negatively does not help promote the GC cause.

Whilst many people already know this, new members may not and also its a gentle reminder to us all - it can be all to easy to lose your temper on some threads, but ultimately its not helpful.

This is such a good idea, thanks Darth

MNHQ
KateMumsnet · 07/04/2018 18:25

Hey all - really sorry to post and bail but I'm not technically 'on' on the weekends and family is calling. Briefly though - honestly think that the best thing is either to engage calmly with a measured response, or, when you just don't feel able to do so, to not post at all. Biscuits do often seem pretty antagonistic (aware how bloody ridiculous that sounds) and it's the general atmosphere of antagonism that makes it harder for MNHQ to hold the line, as it were.

Off to wrangle, but rhanks for engaging with our post, everyone - really do appreciate it.

DarthArts · 07/04/2018 18:23

Just to add, I'm not sure that not engaging is helpful.

It gives the impression that we don't actually have the facts/points/evidence to back up a GC position.

It is important to do it without being offensive though.

DarthArts · 07/04/2018 18:19

Good post OP.

I think when we see threads that are potentially trying to invite an angry response from our side, the first person who can just posts a quick message reminding everyone to keep it civil and points out that responding negatively does not help promote the GC cause.

Whilst many people already know this, new members may not and also its a gentle reminder to us all - it can be all to easy to lose your temper on some threads, but ultimately its not helpful.

SecretsRsecrets · 07/04/2018 18:17

I don't know if it would be helpful if, as soon as any regular posters recognized that someone is a dubious poster, they just post the word 'stop' or some such, and those that follow recognize it and then deprive the poster of oxygen?

It can be good to engage sometimes to debate, but other times I think it can do more harm. I guess the difficulty is in figuring out which to engage with and which to avoid.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 07/04/2018 18:11

*disingenuous

CATTamongthepigeons · 07/04/2018 18:11

Can I ask, MNHQ... I saw the thread this morning and immediately felt it was an attack. I therefore just typed in Biscuit . I see two others followed.

Is that an acceptable response? I confess I hoped that the OP would just receive a whole raft of biscuits and perhaps think twice before engaging again in such a manner.

I see that later the wonderful Datun said that she felt such threads were useful, in that the important arguments were laid out again.

Would there be a preferred way to deal with goady OPs? There’s a danger if regular posters such as Datun don’t engage at all, then other less patient posters might take over completely.

In case anyone would also like to engage elsewhere, there is the CATT group on Facebook.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 07/04/2018 18:11

It's frustrating when people are spending time and energy on patient explanations to which the OP has no intention at all of giving considered thought. And whatever is said here, however clear and polite and robust the argument, it gets called 'abuse' and is described as 'hysterical' and bullying etc

I find it helps if you think of yourself as replying 'to' the lurkers rather than to the disengenuous poster

BoreOfWhabylon · 07/04/2018 18:09

Perhaps it would be best not to engage with OPs with no posting history, whose first posts are either inflammatory or sound disingenuous?

Yes. Just report as '?TRA goader'. It's what I used to do with the MRA tools.

HomeTerf · 07/04/2018 18:04

Perhaps it would be best not to engage with OPs with no posting history, whose first posts are either inflammatory or sound disingenuous?

It's frustrating when people are spending time and energy on patient explanations to which the OP has no intention at all of giving considered thought. And whatever is said here, however clear and polite and robust the argument, it gets called 'abuse' and is described as 'hysterical' and bullying etc. And obviously causes MNHQ no end of grief to sift through too.

yetanothertranswoman · 07/04/2018 18:04

I got banned from another forum because I got angry at another poster's deliberate goading about being trans.

I know how feelings can build up - especially when they affect either you or something you are passionate about.

MN is right in the thick of the debate. It's good that things can be debated.

rowdywoman1 · 07/04/2018 18:02

I agree with the majority. I think it's @Datun who says ' remember the lurkers".

It's like dealing with teenagers - it is incredibly hard for adolescents to be repeatedly rude to adults who consistently model assertive respect back at them - no matter how offensive they are being.

The public narrative is shifting - #nodebate is recognised as oppressive and people are starting to talk. Let's ensure that everyone sees the debate as powerful, respectful and reasoned on this side.

Pratchet · 07/04/2018 18:00

I'm sorry if I did any of that, does one get an email if one has a post deleted?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 07/04/2018 17:59

Sorry @MNHQ.

One of my posts was deleted and deservedly so. I was incredibly frustrated and angry with the lies, gaslighting and abuse on twitter.

No excuses. I will do better.

Thanks for supporting free speech, and women.

Flowers & Gin

RealityHasALiberalBias · 07/04/2018 17:58

It’s a matter of being careful to stay in control, count to ten and take some deep breaths if a post gets us riled up, and always stick rigorously to the talk guidelines.

If we pride ourselves on open, reasoned debate, we have to uphold the principles of that, even when it’s hard and things are getting emotional.

Everywhere else on the internet (and the wider political world) is getting more insular, and debate is being shut down in favour of ideology. That makes places like this ever more valuable.