Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

fine AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth, let them watch. And if they are going to appropriate TGLWGH and the meaning behind it I say hurray. I don't enjoy being called a nazi for understanding that humans can't change sex, so if that's going to stop I'm pretty damn pleased.

Brace = brave

Though both may be relevant!

*In reality the feel of the place to many is transphobic.

As a business I'm not sure I would want the reputation that this place has gained, and as an advertiser I sure as hell wouldn't put an advert here.*

The trouble is some people are framing being pro-women's rights as transphobia. This is a tactic to shut down discussion.

It hasn't worked on mumsnet. It is breaking down more and more in the wider debate, thanks to brace supporters of freedom of speech and women's right to discuss their rights like mumsnet

I think it's one thing saying that posters should not rise to baiting and goading (yes, me) and should post reasonably but a lot of the posts are being rather too conciliatory, which the TRAs are happily saying it's their victory.

And they are now appropriating #tglwgh too.

They do sit on these threads and watch

Sorry to be paranoid! This whole thing feels like a minefield at the moment.

Reddit, 4chan, ARRSE etc don't get mainstream attention. MN does. People are listening to what we say and agreeing. We have the high ground, let's not lose it.

#TGLWGH #WWDS*

*What Would Datun Say?

I support the idea of using initials rather than pronouns. Might be a bit grammatically clunky but at least my politics won't be compromised. And we'll all understand why we are doing it.

This is a very chilling thread - and a very important one.

I can totally understand why Mumsnet as a responsible business needs to say what they are saying

And I think that their "brand" is a very powerful one in our favour - when we are reported as Mumsnetters say this or that in the media - people stop and think and envisage local mums who they know or see in the street, mums they trust.... they are likely to hear what we say with a more listening ear and be more ready to engage with the debate than if they are reported as views held by feminists (which sadly is still an unpopular and alienating word). The brand of mumsnet is so powerful in helping us change minds

A couple of other comments having thoughtfully read what others say:

• I don't think we post less - this is a discussion board - and for me (as for many others) noticing that so many people seemed concerned and then gradually discovering why is what has taken me to peak trans
• Pronouns - only recently have I realised how crucial they are - as violent sexual crimes are being carried out by "her" - so I now feel strongly about no longer using the sexually-incorrect pronoun... but I suspect give the current climate using they or avoiding pronouns in our discussions (unless having a discussoin about why we believe pronouns are important) is the strongest way to go - going high not low - enabling our words to be heard and understood by more people which is after all our goal ... i.e. not scaring them away by appearing to be angry transphobes to those who have yet to peak
• I am deeply fearful of the TRA capacity to come in and "demonstrate" how transphobic Mumsnet is - I think sadly we should be suspicious of all new names until they have proved themselves.... It may be easy for us to restrain ourselves, but how do we restrain those who come on here with malice to appear GC? And I suspect this is something which will start taking up more Mumsnet HQ time... as others have said, ManFriday and others have ensured the TRA focus is now on us

to all - and especially to Mumsnet HQ for providing such an incredibly valuable role in enabling us to find each other and to discuss what I genuinely believe is the most important issue of my lifetime

Wait, to be clear, OP, did you just report me for objecting to another commenter describing women here as playing the victim?

Arrse, 4chan and Reddit don't attract anywhere near the level of users as MN. When was the last time a major politician appeared for a web chat on them or they were quoted by major columnists in national papers?

In the internet domain women, using MN, have far more of a voice than ever. With that surely comes responsibility? Or are you just looking to play the victim?

Well, it's an interesting question really isn't it? Why does Mumsnet, a forum for women, get so much attention, in the way that forums for men don't? Why does The Sun have a 'Mumsnet' section where it regurgitates threads from here? Why does the DM constantly write articles from threads on here, or have journalists make up threads to get replies? Why is Mumsnet portrayed as this homogenous group of screeching Harridans and bitches by people who have never even really used the site? Why isn't the public perception of Mumsnet that its a place where women can get loads of support for stuff that, let's face it, most people aren't that interested in, like breastfeeding, weaning, trying to conceive?

What do you mean when you say 'responsibility'?

"This statistic presents the number of unique visitors to Reddit.com from April 2017 to December 2017. It was measured that almost 1.66 billion users had accessed the site in the most recent period.
users - Reddit"

That's comparable to MN surely?

Its just that Reffit, 4cyan etc are either seen as predominantly male or non-specified and dont have anything to do with being a woman or parent.

MN was setup as such and hence provided a nice, coralled space for politicians etc to jump on and try and gain influence over a particular demographics voting and purchasing habits. Sonas usual, easy target to try and shutdown that demographic's opinions.

I do fnd it staggering that the TRAs care more that we disagree with them on basic points of fact and biology, but wish them nonactual harm, when there are people on 4chan and other trad male forums openly stating that they want them to violently die. I suspect we're seen as an easy target as i dont think they'd have the appetite to take very macho, violent men on. I guess we just have to be consistent, comsiderd and polite in our response, as ever, to take the moral highground.

Floisme
I normally write my post then leave it for a few minutes and think about whether I'm really contributing anything. If I'm angry I often write something angry but then delete it.

This is an excellent idea. There's also an useful acronym for such situations - SFTWD (smiling from the wrists down).

Not Patodp. Telling women they're playing the victim on a feminist forum. Or getting angry with them for pointing out that women's opinions are policed more harshly.

It's a bit jarring, in the middle of a thread about attempting to aim for more civility and less hostility.

Thanks MNHQ for continuing to have this discussion here. It's hugely important.

Wow, speaking of hostility, don't you think that was a bit ott?

So was the site invaded yesterday by TRAs posing as GC feminists posting "repeated slurs against transwomen" then?

That really does not sound typical of FWR regulars or MNers in general. And as it happened halfway through after lots of reasonableness and the troll sharing on other sites...

donquix I would say it's a mixture of what both you and AngryAttack said tbh. Yes of course they are scared of such a well organised, reasoned and well orchestrated campaign making great gains. But I would imagine that the fact its women organising these campaigns is not an insignificant detail either. The misogyny oozes from some TRAs, and TERFs/Mumsnet were a huge target long before ManFriday.

Yes, I'm not saying we should be rude and abusive to anyone who comes in with a different view. In fact, I always feel that the tactic of continuing to just bombard such posters with calm, polite, reasonable facts and debate works much better, as they then have nothing to throw back. As others have said, there are several posters on here that are excellent at doing that. Getting cross with them doesn't actually get anywhere and then they go back to Twitter and tell everyone about the 'horrific abuse' they suffered on Mumsnet.

I just think that boundaries are continuing to be pushed and saying 'actually no, you are not a woman, so no, you can't come into this space' is NOT transphobic. As a pp said, for a long time, women were perfectly accepting of transwomen in the loos because they were just getting on with thing and so were we.

But there comes a time where we have to say 'no, enough, stop'. We are allowed to state our boundaries and boy they have been reached and then some.

Sorry cross post. I didn't mean to imply pronouns are abusive - that concerns me too but personally I just avoid using them. I think it's perfectly ok to sidestep sometimes. There's no need to go punch for punch.

Why Mumsnet? Why 'TERFs'? Because we're women.

Oh FGS. Certainly women's voices are often ignored, and women are sometimes criticised for things a man wouldn't be, but a simplistic analysis of 'because patriarchy' or 'to deliberately oppress women' is rarely sufficient explanation for most things in modern day Britain.

MN are being targeted because the #manfriday campaign has been incredibly effective, so it drew attention.

WPUK and feminism in general are a bigger target than unreconstructed, bigoted morons for a number of reasons:

1. Many are politically very close to a lot of the TRA- left wing/liberal, so criticism hits home more, is seen more and feels (to them) like a betrayal.
2. Feminist make coherent arguments, which are hard to refute. Bigots tend to make themselves dismissable by the end of the first sentence.
3. GC feminism is now organised on this; it's working. Bigots are ignored by most of the population and the best strategy is to ignore them- that hasn't worked for feminists.

Lets be a bit more analytical in our annoyance with the newcomers. #TGLWGH