Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

What's engaging versus attacking, though, from MNHQ perspective? Yet says there were slurs being used in the T thread. I don't remember seeing any - were they deleted? What constitutes a slur?

Well, I'll stick my hand up with a mea culpa and say that I directly accused the OP in that thread of exhibiting male pattern abusive behaviour. And was pretty rude about it, although I didn't use any actual slurs.

I could have made the same point fairly easily by framing it in the context of a positive defence of boundaries and consent and about TRA activism and tactics generally. But I didn't.

My fault that the post was deleted, nobody else's. And I'm entirely prepared to accept that I did MNHQ no favours in posting it.

Maybe thats the key. Dont get wound up, laugh at how silly people are being.
I agree. Some of my favourite posters on here are very funny. It's a very powerful tool.

I feel just like floisme, especially this:
And I have to say, the threads about Lily Madigan make me cringe. I know the history but the argument shouldn't be with Madigan but with the Labour Party. I no longer open them as I just can't bear it.
I have no problem saying that a boy took a woman's job, but people starting thread after thread, and watching his every move. No, it's not on. My problem is also with the Labour Party not with one individual.
I think it's really important to be calm and factual and leave off any individual attack, and that includes trawling Twitter for trans activists so you can start threads about them which is clearly what they want.
I avoided this discussion for a long time because it seemed so OTT.
I'm NOT scared of men, I don't feel like they could attack me at any time (I personally don't, not saying I'm right) and I felt like it was a lot of frothing over nothing.
Then Caitlin Jenner, then the Top Shop thing, then learning about Mermaids, then the AWS..and I started paying attention, but to reach people like me you need to deal in measured facts, not florid hyperbole, because
a)it attracts trolls who want to play and
b)it turns off people who are new to the debate.
I don't really care that as women we are expected to play nice. So what? So we act like grown ups, what else is new? (I don't play nice in real life, I do what I like, but this is politics!)
Anyway, that's just my opinion as a long time lurker, take it or leave it, have a good Sunday.

And wine glasses and strike through fail!!! I really do suck at posting on here. I should stick to lurking!

But my point is Im not annoyed, im amused. Same as I found it amusing when the OP of the T thread tried to wind everybody up, largely failed and skulked back to twitter saying we were all hysterical (that old chesnut). The recent twitter post that we are referencing is the most hysterical thing ive seen on the internet for days! Somehow, I am finding it amusing now. Maybe thats the key. Dont get wound up, laugh at how silly people are being.

I think certain people on Twitter whose names I'm not using on purpose may not be clear on how the concept of going high works. I recommend watching more videos of Michelle Obama's speeches.

I'd prefer to appropriate her physical fitness rather than her slogan, personally, but I'm much too lazy.

Random exclamation mark there Camper 😁 apparently I was just exited to see you

Camper! I too am blocked as are the vast majority of us I'm sure

I agree with you by the way. I wouldn't choose to not engage, I think it is a great opportunity to speak to the lurkers. I just choose how I engage apart from the other night when I had one glass of wine too many and got more than a little sanctimonious

The thing is that this thread will show a range of opinion. It will occasionally get testy. It will, in the end, come to a rough but not didactic consensus that will help us all going forwards. It won't stop us expressing the gender critical position as best as we know how, whether or not we are mocked or insulted for doing so elsewhere.

That's what happens when women come together and talk freely.

@ReluctantCamper

I deleted mn app this week due to similar ishoos.

It lasted roughly 40 mins.

"I think we expend a lot of energy watching TRAs on Twitter and reporting back what they say. I sometimes wonder what the point is."

You know I was thinking the exact same thing Flo and I'm going to stop looking.

And as camper says, it's a good thing if they start thinking on michelle lines.

And with that, I'm off to make breakfast for my familiy

Sorry WTGLWGH. But my point is still that we didn't invent it and I don't see any use in getting annoyed if other people borrow it too.

Oh I agree, no one can copyright anninternet meme, i just found it an amusingly base tactic compared to the intelligent debate hapenning here.

Well mimmy appears to be unable to WTGLWGH, as has called anyone GC a terf, bigot and 'pseudo' feminist in the same tweet. Which is basic name calling and not rising above anything.

What's engaging versus attacking, though, from MNHQ perspective? Yet says there were slurs being used in the T thread. I don't remember seeing any - were they deleted? What constitutes a slur?

It's all very up in the air at the moment and that's inevitably going to leave everyone a bit on edge.

Christ you lot - will you stop being so bloody interesting.

Yet again I have ignored my children for nearly half a day, despite promising my self I wouldn't.

Off to go and be an actual mother for a bit.

Well we appropriated TGLWGL too. So what? Thank you Michelle.

I think we expend a lot of energy watching TRAs on Twitter and reporting back what they say. I sometimes wonder what the point is.

How hilarious that that person is trying to nick WTGLWGH, so childish, actually makes me laugh. With the pass it on, like kids do in the playground. Johhny loves Mary, pass it on! Actually made me laugh out loud. As if anyone wouldnt be able to see that it was being used here first.

sadly Imherefornow I can't see that thread as I'm blocked by minnymum despite never having interacted with her.

And that's part of the point. TRAs on twitter don't allow any debate or dissent, we should absolutely be prepared to engage. Politely, respectfully, with facts, but engage.

And that's why I'd post on a thread like donnabe's yesterday any day of the week.

If someone wants to talk to me who am I to summarily shut them down?

Yes you're right camper, if they started behaving better I'd be very happy too. Go Michelle

Yeah, like I said earlier, many trans activists find stating a person's sex using the words "male" and "female" aggressive and see it as an attack. When discussions of FGM can be described as transphobic you have to realize that there's a rather unusual concept of what is and is not aggressive, bigoted, etc going on here, and that the goal is a level of control over women's speech that's fundamentally unreasonable. This isn't just about being polite. If what MNHQ are asking for is for us to avoid calling specific public figures out by name that can be worked around, but surely they realize by now that they're dealing with a movement where if you give an inch the whole highway will be taken.

wine
I disagee strongly . Mumsnet has a reputation for intelligent debate. It has been cited in numerous articles by respected journalists.

The Mumnet being transphobia thing is a total red herring. There are v few incidences of transphobia on here and it is well moderated.

The TRAs like to shout transphobia because they want NO DEBATE on the subject at all. They want their agenda to be adopted unquestionably.

I've just poured Ecover washing liquid into my washing machine with a huge "mumsnet approved" tag on the top that gets in the way and has to be removed.

That's the responsibility.

I've just searched for the word mumsnet on twitter and there are people saying "mn has always been political and boycotted stuff" (and criticising mn, seemingly that how very dare is have political opinions on certain things) but in the next breath labelling the whole site as anti trans. Which is completely incorrect.

That's another responsibility.

I said on another thread, I've learnt more skills in critical thinking and debate here than I ever did at university, from good quality examples. I doubt myself constantly and it took a year of lurking and questioning to get the basics of what's discussed here. And joined dots within my own experiences that suddenly made much more sense.

I've done a hell of a lot of WWDS too, and told her this.

"play the ball not the player" yy to this!

Frustrations run high, particularly when dealing with posters who are here to deliberately provoke and have no interest in debating in good faith. Let's face it, it would be impossible to change the minds of those who are personally or otherwise invested in TRA issues. But that, as far as I see it, is not what we are attempting to do.

"Post for the lurkers" yyy to this!

Lurkers who are curious, seeking answers or unsure will not be educated by antagonistic point scoring. Reason, compassion and patience is what we all need to post. Is it fair that we are held to higher expectations...no but it is precisely the respectful (but no bullshit) and reasoned posts of feminists in the face of a tenuous and sometimes quite abusive TRA narrative that helped me to turn that corner.

Interestingly I came across this post earlier

twitter.com/mimmymum/status/982900541230632960?s=19

And it seems that this thread is being appropriated. However, if it raises the level of debate (of which I am sceptical) from the TRAs, I see no harm in this.