Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

And so it begins...

(I'm not very good at this not being confrontational thing. I'm trying!)

Patriarchy is widely believed feminist theory, and you appeared to be dismissive of it. I thought that was a bit off. Especially as a man commenting. That was what jarred for me.

I certainly wasn't disputing the theory of patriarchy, just saying that it being given as a one word answer for everything is a bit reductive.

I'm very happy to have my comments pulled apart, and to defer to the views of those with better understanding. I shall be more careful in future.

If the implication here is that I've transformed into a delicate little flower who can't handle arguments, then nope. I'm trying very hard to stick to the talk guidelines and not be as confrontational as it's my natural personality to be.

There is never a situation in which it's appropriate for a man to scoff at a woman when she points out that what's considered an acceptable way of expressing oneself for him and what's considered acceptable for her are very different. To then explain what's "actually" happening in the situation in which women are being socially pressured into not saying things that it would be fine for men to say does not in any way intimidate or chasten the woman (at least not if she's anything like me), it just leaves her with a very low opinion of the intelligence and self-awareness of the man making the comments.

"Robust" and "too sexist to even consider that a woman might know more about her experiences than you do" are not the same thing.

I'm posting quickly as I've just spent far too long reading all this (though time well spent - it's all so important.) What I'm taking away is the really public nature of this board now. I guess I was still thinking of it as an informal, anonymous discussion, but I think we have to be aware that we're making very public statements when we respond to posts on here, especially from first time users.

So, when a post pops up like the one yesterday, perhaps we should be aware that we're addressing a wider public and reply in an appropriately corporate tone. 'Hi OP, welcome to MN,' and maybe ask them to clarify the point they'd like to raise or question they'd like to ask before lots of posters rush in to respond to a goad.

Sorry - typing in haste, which is maybe not helpful given points made upthread about too many posts and pausing first!

What I was suggesting is that simplistic answers don't help advance the argument. I don't think (from this thread) that that is a strongly male point of view.

Patriarchy is widely believed feminist theory, and you appeared to be dismissive of it. I thought that was a bit off. Especially as a man commenting. That was what jarred for me. It wasn't a terrible comment, just a bit tone deaf and patronising.

I agree with Angry, FWIW, donquixote. I don't think it's the place of men to tell women what misogyny/sexism is, as you did to her earlier. But happy for you to be on the threads and post if you respect that.

@Ereshkigal. I absolutely disagree that I was telling angry what sexism is. I agree with @AngryAttackKittens sentiment, that women are held to a different standard on this issue, and apologise if I did not make that clear.

What I was suggesting is that simplistic answers don't help advance the argument. I don't think (from this thread) that that is a strongly male point of view. I do accept that it was expressed in a brusque way- it was mean to be comradely and I had the prior impression that angry was accepting of a level of robustness in discussion.

Wittering over, I shall shut up.

It seems to me when men chip in with 'helpful' comments they are being helpful. Helpful in that it is so bloody obvious how patronising they are no comments need to be made.

I was in a meeting and a man was trying to patronise me he made a comment along the lines of "well women are like that" .......I didn't reply I just let the comment hang in the air for an uncomfortable amount of time. He looked around for support no one met his eye.

We can do that with posters. They are patronising and are met with " that's interesting please explain" they inevitably will make fools of themselves. These people don't need shouting down. We don't need to prove to them they are stupid, we do need to consider the audience.

The main point I was trying to make was that I think it's much easier to form a robust gender-critical stance if you're able to discuss and learn about other aspects of women's rights here too. It's a brilliant place to discuss them, I think.
Thanks for tolerating the derail though, all.

In general it's the threads about rape and sexual harassment and porn where I'd personally prefer not to have men sticking their oar in. There's one person who's consistently posted "i shouldn't have to apologize for being a man" type comments and occasionally rather blatant rape apologism in those kinds of threads. Maybe other women here are fine with this, I'm not sure, but given that MNHQ frown upon being confrontational I've elected not to participate in those threads any more because if I told the person in question directly what I think of his opinions on rape and harassment it would probably result in an immediate ban.

I agree with Angry, FWIW, donquixote. I don't think it's the place of men to tell women what misogyny/sexism is, as you did to her earlier. But happy for you to be on the threads and post if you respect that.

DQ, what I mean is that threads like this are clearly mixed, but if we were able to go back to some of the more consciousness-raising threads we used to have, like the 'small sexual assaults thread' where women shared experiences of what they felt were relatively insignificant experiences of sexual assault

Absolutely fair enough. I think you have to be pretty tone deaf to chip in with your bloke's point of view on a thread about experiences of sexual assault or menstruation.

I've seen the idea that men shouldn't be here expressed much more strongly and generally than you put it, in the past; so thought the question worth asking.

The posting style you describe - reading, learning, being involved when you have something to contribute - isn't an issue at all, I don't think. but yes, like this.

I'd welcome men joining in the debate. As I do anyone who is trans.

The posting style you describe - reading, learning, being involved when you have something to contribute - isn't an issue at all, I don't think.

In the past, some male posters just totally changed the tone of a thread and I just think it's a shame when that happens. I'm not the thread police though - it's just an opinion.

I'd say your first post in this thread was an excellent example of why women often prefer men to read more and talk less in feminist space, donquixote.

I've welcomed your contributions on this and other threads DonQuixote.

I - an old woman - never post on other topics in Feminism but I think you are right, the proposed self-ID affects us all.

DQ, what I mean is that threads like this are clearly mixed, but if we were able to go back to some of the more consciousness-raising threads we used to have, like the 'small sexual assaults thread' where women shared experiences of what they felt were relatively insignificant experiences of sexual assault - that turned into a hugely consciousness-raising conversation and it would have gone down like a cup of cold sick for a male poster to come in and say 'oh but xyz isn't illegal' or 'tell me why it was so bad when I did xyz to my partner'.

It's basic social skills probably (which don't come instinctively to me so I like things to be stated overtly).

Some conversations are genuinely transformative when had between women only.
Which is why the whole self-ID thing is going to be an issue.

Women don't always get the chance to experience those conversations and being able to be part of one or two might make a huge difference.

That's not the main point I was trying to make but I do think it was a valuable part of why FWR has been so life-changing.

Well, I'll stick my hand up with a mea culpa...My fault that the post was deleted, nobody else's. And I'm entirely prepared to accept that I did MNHQ no favours in posting it.

I think intelligent, adult discussion like this is why the MN campaign has worked. Contrast the above statement with the inability of the TRAs we complain about to accept any possibility they might be wrong. I saw a post from @LangCleg suggesting they would step back from the discussion, so please you've chosen not to.

tbh it would help with this tremendously if genuine male posters could respect the need for these conversations to be women-only

I (a bloke) have rarely posted on Feminism topics in the past because (for obvious reasons) I don't have the experience to add a lot of value, so I just read and think. I've engaged a lot more with the anti self ID campaign, because I think it's important for everyone. Do the majority really not want men involved at all? In which case I will cheerfully respect that.

I think its really important to step back, consider how #nodebate was maintained and also consider the ways in which now there are the beginnings of open discussion debate might again be closed down.
There are many ways... some subtle, some overt.
Frontline 'spats' have been used and are being used in many ways. This includes manipulating people within the transgender community- on the 'T' post, I commented that I could understand how they might come to have their beliefs having seen their twitter following list (& the effects of the massive 'terf blocking'). We should not be so quick to dismiss the effects that the most prolific of accounts such as NotCursedE, Giuliana_London & KilgoreSprout are having...
Having GC concerns does not mean being 'anti-trans', 'bigoted', 'hate-filled' 'transphobic' 'right-wing nazi extremist' BUT this is exactly what some TRAs need to promote & fuel both fear and loathing...

JAmes Kirkup's article blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/ was really important, and I think worth re-reading just now... because how best to discredit and distract from it but by shutting down debate here?

"the people responsible for the fear and abuse these women suffer are not representative of transgender people as a whole; the transgender population must be assumed to contain as wide a distribution of vice and virtue as any other group. Indeed, some of those involved in this debate suspect that at least some of the real authors of that fear and abuse are not transwomen but men intent on frightening and diminishing women. Certainly, some male supporters of transgender rights seem to take a certain pleasure in the anxieties of women who question that agenda."

Well my comment was taking the piss

It was also crude though

One of the things I've been reflecting on recently is how the FWR topic came to be, and what I got out of it initially, and how it became a crucible for this kind of conversation.
One of the things that would probably be very effective, and also infuriating to anyone maliciously reporting posts in the hope members will be deleted or banned, is to use FWR as a space to also have feminism 101 type conversations.

I first came into feminism as a way of resisting male violence, and also celebrating women's creativity. What FWR did for me is create a space where I could learn about other aspects of women's rights and activism.

if someone's first way into these conversations is the change in policy towards self-ID, maybe it would help to have threads about other topics which would enable a broader understanding of feminist ideas and theory etc so that we can all develop - I do think it helps when we're articulating arguments about eg why we need women-only spaces.

tbh it would help with this tremendously if genuine male posters could respect the need for these conversations to be women-only but I realise that's not in line with MN guidelines so it would rely on people respecting that need, and maybe if they find a topic interesting, creating a parallel thread where mixed conversations could happen.

I miss the humour and kindness and exciting nature of FWR - it's still there but there's so much negative, embattled stuff just now which makes sense - these are dark times.
I am in no means tone-policing but some positive threads would be welcome - for me, at least.

Is it a slur to say men are not women? I don't think so .

Maybe thats the key. Dont get wound up, laugh at how silly people are being.

This is always my first inclination but I have to point out that narcissists really, really don't like being made fun of and are likely to complain to MNHQ about that too.

I support anybody 'going high' when it comes to public debate. I don't care who they are. Isn't that the whole point?