Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

The last thing we want is to develop our own echo-chamber. Dissenting views and questions asked in good faith are very welcome. I hope to see you all around [tea] [tea] [tea]

ifnot
I think you’re right that the tone must be offputting, but so much of the TRA’s argument is ‘but I want that’ and we have to be firm in saying no.

When I first came on here I was shocked by the way people just bold as brass called a trans woman Male. It was truly shocking to me but they are and we don’t do anyone any favours pretending otherwise.

The whole excluding/including thing is really silly. Radical feminism isn’t excluding trans people, being female is a sex category not a seat at the lunch table. Trans people are included in radical feminism, the only thing is we don’t think you can change sex.

IfNot

The reason it must sounds like a war here is because the reality is so far beyond confusing and unhelpful. The word female is about to be changed forever to mean female and male (already happening in Scotland). Women will have to beg through the courts to ever have any women or girls only services or facilities. We can't even call men men any more in many female only spaces. In the US you can be fined a quarter of million USD for misgendering. It is actually quite extreme.

This site is helpful.
sexmatters.org.uk/

the framing of 'a war of two sides' and the deliberate positioning of those people asking questions as 'trans-exclusionary', 'anti-trans', 'bigots', 'nazis', 'terfs' etc serves only one group... that of some TRAs.

It is a tactic which has worked very well up to now.

There is much more to gained by engaging with Playdohnut & Koy with nuance and calm.... in fact this is absolutely vital.

I've spent the last three weeks trying to unpick what on earth might be going on. This has only been possible due to unusual personal circumstances... most people dip in and out amongst all of their other concerns, preoccupations and life! Like nearly every other person whom I've read on this board, none of the perjorative descriptors above apply to me. My concerns are solely on the damage that some TRAs are doing not least to many within the transgender community but primarily to women and girls and especially to political integrity.

I know there are many more with much greater knowledge and awareness- I do so hope that they help more people to understand what is an incredibly complex situation better.

I namechanged a while back, to reclaim the name TERF as Telling Everyone Real Facts. Because the term TERF was being used as a slur against us - with things like "Kill all terfs" and "punch a terf" being circulated widely on Twitter. Or my particular favourite, "I want to rape a TERF to death, and then cut up her body".

Telling real facts - like a person cannot change their sex, a man cannot become a woman, and woman is an adult human female.

We do not hate trans people - but we defend our right to speak in a language where words have definitions based on fact, not feelings. We want to preserve "woman" as a biological sex category, and that this is a women's rights issue.

I reject gender stereotypes, and "boy brain" and "girl brain" - because that sort of thinking is the root of women's oppression. Woman is not a feeling, it is a biological reality.

I post too slowly. :) I do find myself wandering into these threads increasingly, so I will probably scuttle back at some point when I'm feeling brave. Thank you for being less scary than I expected.

My post was replying to teacup

Playdohnut - Please don't scuttle off - I'm, a lurker, not a poster, and I felt quite daunted when i first started reading the board. But I've learnt so much and now understand the terminology ( more or less) and the voices.

Stick around and feel welcome . I did and do.

Well you shouldn't, but what I am saying is that for parents of kids who are struggling with gender identity (which I think is pretty meaningless but they dont) the "we are at war" tone must feel quite offputting.
It's quite confusing actually. I know instinctively the difference between anow AGP ( what I would have called a transvestite)and a genuine transsexual.
I think most women do actually, so I agree with Tru that the term "trans" to cover the whole shebang is actually really confusing and unhelpful.

You don’t have to scuttle back anywhere Playdohnut

I understand your point, it’s just that personally I disagree as it feels empowering to take the label I’ve been given and use it in a new way (in my situation using it to differentiate rather than an insult)

Many of the new posters tend to stick around for a while (come for the drama, stay for the facts ) and I think after a few threads the reason for the names becomes apparent.

Don't scuttle. That's a helpful observation.

‘However, if my son grew up saying he wanted to be a woman, would I want him excluded? I don't know. I wouldn't believe he was really a woman but when it's someone you love it must be more nuanced surely. ’

Of course it is, but why should we include your son as a woman just because he’s your son.

Why not reclaim it? Because, coming in from the "outside" it is not clear whether those using Terf in their usernames are are reclaiming it or endorsing it - it is coming across that they actually are trans-exclusionary to the casual lurker.

I was trying to expand on why there is the feeling Koyaani described that the impression is created to the casual reader that "anyone who’s not 100% anti-trans is an evil invader" - the usernames, in my opinion, are part of that.

You can believe that many of the Terf usernames are using it ironically, but I'm not entirely sure of that. Anyway, it was just an observation. I'll scuttle back to Chat now.

flowersonthepiano

yes, I wish I had more imagination. The extent of my username creativitity is some swear words, or stuff from threads I find funny. I have been batshite, thegoalistostayoutofthehole, WankingMonkey and MarrowWang. And more, but those spring to mind to start with

playdohnut I know what you mean about possible interpretations of some usernames at first glance. If you stick around and chat (relative newbie myself to these boards) it becomes clear the spirit in which they are being used. I quite like them now tbh, i'm embarrassed by the lack of imagination in mine

I recognise "the WE ARE AT WAR tone" too, and agree that the hard line doesn't always allow for the messiness and shades of grey in real life

I don't know about the TERF thing. I guess at the end of the day, I don't want men being included as women. However, if my son grew up saying he wanted to be a woman, would I want him excluded? I don't know. I wouldn't believe he was really a woman but when it's someone you love it must be more nuanced surely.
I do know I really wouldn't want him taking hormones in his teens, so the stuff aimed at children is the stuff I can draw a really clear line on. I do think that all serious points of view should be talked about.

We characterise ourselves as penis-exclusionary Playdohnut, definitely not trans-exclusionary. We have no problem at all with trans-identified females in female spaces, we are broadly concerned about self-iding males in our spaces, rather than transsexuals, and we are delighted that trans-identified males such as Truscum feel welcome here and contribute to our debates.

Playdohnut

By using terf it takes the sting out of the insult, especially it's turned it into a pun. I think a lot of usernames are puns here, none of the terf ones are serious, humour can help defuse a situation, but also it is also an in joke. I used terflonnonstickpan for a while when I was appalled at women being insulted for asking questions on this, but I don't anymore.

"HomeTerf", "Freshlylaidterf" and all the others with terfs in the username (there seems a lot of you), are you actually saying you are trans-exclusionary?

I believe that the users with TERF in their names are using them as they are called terf anyway so its an attempt to reclaim the term. Also, FWR regulars say TERF is actually Telling Everyone Real Facts, or similar. Its ridiculous to claim radfems are trans exclusionary when they include transmen (who are female) in their feminism.

But that is the only way this word is used, to describe people like me. It doesn’t mean anything else.

But the thing is Truscum, I have no way of knowing that unless you explain that every time. It comes across perhaps differently than you intend.

And obviously I can’t speak for other posters but I believe they are using ‘terf’ in the same way.

They have been threatened and abused under that term for expressing opinions. They are going to be called it anyway, why not reclaim it?

I use this username as this is what I am being called by some ‘pro-trans’ people and TRA’s.

It hurt for a long time but I have reclaimed it, as a way of differentiating myself from those who I believe should not be under the ‘trans’ umbrella, such as cross dressers/transvestites.

I am a transsexual who believe that the term trans should have remained a descriptor for people with diagnoses gender dysphoria, who have transitioned with hormones/surgery.

I'm a sometime lurker on these boards, occasional poster on other boards, and just want to say that I do recognise what Koyaani describes. Bear in mind i just dip in and out. But, having seen the proliferation of trans threads in "Active convos" I have wandered into a few and had a look around. I do get why feelings are running high, however, just look at a lot of the usernames on this threads, and others like them - I'm sure a lot of them are in-jokes among the hardcore posters, but for those of us wandering in going "so what's this all about then?" it does come across as Koyaani describes.

Usernames, for instance - I'm picking a few at random, with no personal knowledge of their posting history other than what I've scanned on this thread, but for example, "Truscum" is quite an aggressive username, and I honestly don't know if you're using it seriously or ironically. "HomeTerf", "Freshlylaidterf" and all the others with terfs in the username (there seems a lot of you), are you actually saying you are trans-exclusionary? Because if you are, you're not for me. And yes, I do have problems/questions/concerns around self-ID. But I also think trans people should not be excluded. So that is one of the things which contributes to the feeling which Koyaanisquatsi mentions.

Sue, I can't read the articles referenced in that article. But the summary of the main article cited reads:
"Evidence that there is a biologic basis for gender identity primarily involves (1) data on gender identity in patients with disorders of sex development (DSDs, also known as differences of sex development) along with (2) neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity."

If you have access to the full text, I 'd be glad for some expansion. Patients with DSD are a whole different kettle of fish to patients suffering from gender dysphoria. The neuroanatomical differences are perhaps that one study that showed older transsexuals (born male but ling transitioned) having a small area of the brain that looked like a born females?

That is a far cry from saying that the cause of gender identity difficulties is biological. I accept that for some people, their internal sense of gender identity is intractably misaligned with the physical reality of their own body, causing enormous distress.

But it also takes no account of the huge upturn in adolescents and young adults who had no distress until after puberty, now seeking medical treatment for something which is highly unlikely to have a biological basis.

Another point - the endocrine society is concerned with hormones, not psychology. To a hammer, everything is a nail.