Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

I just want to say thanks to all the clever posters on here. Thanks for putting the time and effort in.

I appreciate that we have to be incredibly careful on here, and, realistically, that means holding ourselves to higher standards than it seems others are necessarily held to.

However - while I appreciate that the idea was meant well - I don't like the suggestion that there are too many posts. I think a lot of people are kind of having their minds blown right now and need somewhere to go to hash these things out. I think the idea that we are "obsessed" or something is just a version of "let it go". While there is every need to be polite and non-absuive in what we say, there is no need to be polite in the sense of thinking it inappropriate to raise certain topics, or raise them too often. In my opinion.

can you even imagine the uproar?

Joke. JOKE!

I also think it's reasonable to point out that we are being held to a far higher standard of discourse than others involved in this debate. this, god this.

The abuse and unfounded insults from some over at twitter are staggering if you think about it. If MN posters named TRAs, contacted their employers, called them vile and abusive, insulted them with offensive words such as cis and terf and then said they were comitting literal violence against them and making them feel
suicidal - can you even imagine the uproar?

WTGLWGH indeed

I feel very ignorant - just done a quick google of Truscum.... what does the name actually mean? I know what the beliefs backing it are.... and scum seems an inherent part of the name - but where did it come from and what does it mean?

Truscum is a pejorative given to trans people (by other trans people) who think you aren't trans if you don't have dysphoria and mostly don't buy gender identity ideology.

The opposite term used to be transtrender (trans people who are doing it for social kudos and/or don't have dysphoria). But I think this seems to have largely fallen out of use now as the trans umbrella definition of trans has become dominant.

I'm mostly a lurker and wanted to add that you lot helped me to develop a vocabulary when talking in RL about GC feminism and women only spaces.

-Yup sometimes things get written that make me wince from the GCers. What helps me not turn away from the self id debate is from reading and learning from transwomen involved in MN discussions because when it comes to self-id isnt this who we need to hear from? Both women and transwomen.
-There is so much middle ground but for some reason some TRAs don't want to see it???

• multiple posts help lurkers get their heads around things and (dont slate me) tbh I've read a lot of threads and there's plenty I don't get. I probably won't get everything on here because the speed and intellect is waaaaaaaaaay beyond me.
• Leading on from that point I think sometimes mners write to such a high standard that I do not realise you have been insulting lol. So maybe I don't quite get how anti-trans/insert something else/TRAs some of you are? So yeah call each other out for the lurkers please
• Putting that to one side I love that there is this space on the internet and I think @mumsnetHQ should be proud of this space and all of you who contribute to it.

And my last dumb lurker thought
... misogyny and those who perpetuate it really really really hate when women celebrate their amazingness and the spaces that they create. So I'm gonna keep loving mn and the posters

Back to lurking!

I would hate for Tru to feel policed here too into wearing their abuse more nicely and quietly in case someone casually dropping by on a thread might theoretically be put off

And absolutely this

I feel very ignorant - just done a quick google of Truscum.... what does the name actually mean? I know what the beliefs backing it are.... and scum seems an inherent part of the name - but where did it come from and what does it mean?

I've got TERF - and currenty couldn't yet reclaim it, I am so shocked by the violence expressed towards "Terfs" - though am going to enjoy telling people what it REALLY means as in Telling Everyone Real Facts....

I don't see why we should mediate genuinely held opinions because people reading might not like them, or dilute the community spirit by censoring out shared jokes and understandings because people reading don't want to read enough to understand them

Totally agree with this. It's harder as well to keep track of what the hell everyone's about when there's a million and three posters on every thread.

Too many mousses I’m getting confused!

I don't see why we should mediate genuinely held opinions because people reading might not like them, or dilute the community spirit by censoring out shared jokes and understandings because people reading don't want to read enough to understand them. That is not what MNHQ has asked us to do at all.

This.

I'm not sure what's shocking about the word 'truscum' unless you've encountered it in context and know it's a particularly horrid piece of abusive name caling. If you know that then it is a shocking word, and even more shocking that a trans MNetter wears that as a user name to signal the abuse they have received from people claiming to be acting in their name. In that one word Tru intentionally demonstrates exactly what is wrong and shocking about this whole TRA agenda, and it is powerful. I would hate for Tru to feel policed here too into wearing their abuse more nicely and quietly in case someone casually dropping by on a thread might theoretically be put off. Tru and Yet and Jaycee and numerous other MNetters who are openly trans have always been very happy to patiently answer any questions or aid someone's understanding, they're generous that way. So are most of the regular posters here. Questions welcomed.

I first put my head over the parapet just before Christmas and what pushed me into picking a side was a thread started by someone who was clearly not in good faith. Yet people debated courteously and respectfully and dismantled the arguments rather than the poster. I was very impressed.

If that same poster appeared now I think she would provoke a very different reaction (or at least would have done prior to this thread). That is a great shame. I understand why tempers are rising but it's still very damaging.

But the change in tone is recent so I'm sure things are retrievable.

Too many mousses I’m getting confused!

They are happy to overlook factual inaccuracies and 'the truth' if they support the message or the messenger.

I think few people aren't vulnerable to confirmation bias.

Don't want to get off topic, but there has been research recently in the light of Trump/Brexit indicating that being right doesn't matter that much to some sections of the population.

They are happy to overlook factual inaccuracies and 'the truth' if they support the message or the messenger.

Very worrying on a wider political level but in relation to MN we need to become the tone police and retain the high ground.

X posted with a bunch of people there...its only my opinion, and I'm not a longstanding FWR bod so I can see why I'm being annoying Anyway, I must finish some work so I can go outside! Sun for once!

I hear you Talulah you don't want to be shushed, who does? What's that expression-Speak softly and carry a big stick?
I can't pretend to be a politician, but I am involved in local politics in a small way, and I have learned that to get the right people to do the right things you need to first speak in their language, second make them like you, and third show them what you want in terms of what they will gain (votes etc). It also helps if there is some kind of veiled allusion to the
PR disaster that may befall an MP /councillor etc who fails to recognise the pitfalls of not doing what you propose. Saying the right things is actually more effective than shouting loudly.

This dynamic, pragmatically, poses more of a risk to our ability to be heard than turning some people off by shouting 'too' loudly.

Yes, it does. And I maintain that good faith new members and/or lurkers will be doing FWR the courtesy of paying enough attention to work out that TRA means transactivist and person who isn't necessarily trans themselves, for example. It's what I did - not knowing what women posting here meant by TRA before I joined. It's what people new to internet communities do if they are there in good faith. If people are here in bad faith, it doesn't matter how we say anything, fault will be found.

James Kirkup clearly spent some time reading here in good faith and he managed to work out the thrust of what was being said and to write articles that acknowledged what both sides were saying without taking a side himself. It's not hard. It just requires a little bit of time and familiarity.

We are being asked by MNHQ to avoid direct and personal antagonism towards gender-affirmative posters that come here. I can do that as a gender critical person. We are being asked by MNHQ to abide by the site's talk guidelines. I can do that, too.

I don't see why we should mediate genuinely held opinions because people reading might not like them, or dilute the community spirit by censoring out shared jokes and understandings because people reading don't want to read enough to understand them. That is not what MNHQ has asked us to do at all.

Being right doesn't get you any points in politics. Being persuasive does. Being charming does. Being accessible does. You can be right and still lose.

Can I third, fourth, and fifth this statement please?
I'm not sure if I am any good at getting my point across non-confrontationally, but I am very aware of the sympathetic narrative that trans people are excluded and oppressed. 'Nice' people feel sorry for them. 'Nice' people want to be on the right side of history and not like those nasty bigots who opposed section 28.

The nearest i've seen to sympathetic narrative from this side of the argument is instances like the one where a male nurse arrived to do a smear test for a woman who asked for a female.

I'm guessing you guys have had this conversation a thousand times before, right?

Yes to IfNot's post. Especially the point that FWR is currently a lot more public than just any old Internet chat room.

It works the other way as well.
Someone flounced the other day because I pulled them up on speculating on whether a particular person has had genital surgery or not in quite a crude way.
We’ve been accused of not standing up to transphobia and then people flounce when we do.
It sometimes makes me wince when I see things that I know could backfire if they were put on twitter out of context.

*kept

Considering the increasing amount of new visitors to FWR, a pinned thread at the top in the form of an FAQ might be helpful?

I don’t think Mumsnet can be looking to endorse any particular view.
If there was going to be a pinned post it would probably have to say the chat guidelines.

The antithesis is that as women we have been socialised to be polite and empathetic while the male people with whom we are mostly arguing have been socialised to think our views are unimportant and to shout us down. This dynamic, pragmatically, poses more of a risk to our ability to be heard than turning some people off by shouting 'too' loudly.

There's an important balance to be kep here.

Considering the increasing amount of new visitors to FWR, a pinned thread at the top in the form of an FAQ might be helpful?

OMG nastier - not more nasty.

What was I thinking!