Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

Regarding the use of slurs in user names I would like people to take a moment to think back to what happened when women tried to reclaim the B word in the seventies and the POC tried to reclaim the N word.

The act of reclaiming "slut" and other slurs is done as an act of rebellion but is interpreted as permission. Failure to object is assumed to be acquiescence. Pop culture is full of white men using the slurs on one another that we tried to reclaim in the seventies. They were never our slurs, we were just the targets. They always belonged to the white man.

This is one of the issues that I have with the use of TERF. From reading the FWR boards and contributing (while regularly name changing, incase it needs saying), I understand why the users with TERF in their name do. But I don't need convincing of the GC argument. People who come across these boards following mentions in the Press come here not understanding what we're trying to put across fully, and then are suddenly confronted with all these terf-y names, could think "Oh, so TERF is a thing then" and not take the points seriously.

There's also the apparent cleansing of Twitter, where some prominent TRAs are starting to stop using TERF altogether to enable the "well if they call themselves TERFs we're not misogynists"/"if black people say it...." school of thought.

Usernames are up to the individual, but it's worth bearing in mind that these boards aren't viewed by MNers at the moment.

When I first came on here I was shocked by the way people just bold as brass called a trans woman Male. It was truly shocking to me but they are and we don’t do anyone any favours pretending otherwise.

There is no doubt that mumsnet is attracting whole bunch of new people. And it must be a massive relief to be able to say the truth - the Emperor is naked, and we all know.

Which probably accounts for less than discreet posts and a certain outpouring of pent-up frustration.

I have zero doubt mumsnet is coming in under tremendous pressure from TRAs. We all know they have plans for 'strategic litigation'. It's all part of it.

But in terms of advertisers like Tesco and Birdseye. Firstly the women on mumsnet are their core demographic. They want to advertise here. They want this audience.

But secondly, they won't want any negative publicity. Tesco targeting mumsnetters would look dreadful.

What they might say is we don't want our ads appearing on any pages with certain keywords. Which would reduce revenue for mumsnet.

That's a nod to transactivists who have influence, whilst not damaging their own product.

Which is maybe why mumsnet is trying to police the tone. Keywords, in this instance, are quite difficult to identify. Tone is everything.

I don't want to make life difficult for mumsnet, they've been brilliant.

And I'm sure they can defend these discussions in any number of ways, including the right to free speech. Which is a political hot potato at the moment.

Asking us to check our tone, and not be inflammatory seems, to me at least, to be a request for support.

I don't think for a minute that they want to shut the discussion down. The bad publicity wouldn't be worth it.

sue

Women's fear of men is entirely rational. This ignoring of male violence and power dynamic between men and women is getting really old now.

I think they just don't care about others, MargeH.

I wonder how many of the TRAs have actual biological children. Do you think that's why they don't seem to 'get' the safeguarding issue?

Lang's anger

Moi? How very dare you. I am sweetness and light, me. The DH is always saying so while I chase him round the house brandishing my wooden spoon.

Regarding the use of slurs in user names I would like people to take a moment to think back to what happened when women tried to reclaim the B word in the seventies and the POC tried to reclaim the N word.

The act of reclaiming "slut" and other slurs is done as an act of rebellion but is interpreted as permission. Failure to object is assumed to be acquiescence. Pop culture is full of white men using the slurs on one another that we tried to reclaim in the seventies. They were never our slurs, we were just the targets. They always belonged to the white man.

Thank you, I've been trying to articulate this for a while. Also, with so many names with terf in I get mixed up.

I really liked your last post OP, spot on.

Chin up Kittens - you got your point across perfectly clearly.

I've sometimes found JJ difficult to engage with, but her stroppiness and refusal to back down an inch is exactly why she was the one to publicly stand up to the Labour party over self-ID on all women's short lists. We need women like that just as much as the ones with a more gentle, kind, patient approach.

So much this. We are all individuals and respond to different framing and arguments. A variety of approaches are needed.

Some day I will manage to get bolding right consistently, but today is apparently not that day.

*The antithesis is that as women we have been socialised to be polite and empathetic while the male people with whom we are mostly arguing have been socialised to think our views are unimportant and to shout us down. This dynamic, pragmatically, poses more of a risk to our ability to be heard than turning some people off by shouting 'too' loudly.

There's an important balance to be kep here.*

Why can't there be room for both? Datun's endlessly patient attempts to explain the issues to newbies and Lang's anger? The women reading these threads who're newly arrived will also span the entire personality range, and whether gentle and patient or bloody furious reaches them more effectively will depend on what kind of person they are.

I've sometimes found JJ difficult to engage with, but her stroppiness and refusal to back down an inch is exactly why she was the one to publicly stand up to the Labour party over self-ID on all women's short lists. We need women like that just as much as the ones with a more gentle, kind, patient approach.

Regarding the use of slurs in user names I would like people to take a moment to think back to what happened when women tried to reclaim the B word in the seventies and the POC tried to reclaim the N word.
The act of reclaiming "slut" and other slurs is done as an act of rebellion but is interpreted as permission. Failure to object is assumed to be acquiescence. Pop culture is full of white men using the slurs on one another that we tried to reclaim in the seventies. They were never our slurs, we were just the targets. They always belonged to the white man.

How can anyone police an individual’s identity?

I don't want to police anybody's identity, and I don't want anybody to police mine either. In particular I don't want to be shoved into a box marked 'people who idenitify as female'.

@bewilderness

They ask the people advising on the eradication to advise on any conflict. As we know.

The only thing the trans community is asking for is to self declare via a statutory declaration punishable with two years in jail for perjury for falsely claiming they are living full time in their gender

That’s not actually true. Yetanothertranswoman has set out the Women & Equalities Committee’s recommendations (and linked to the actual report) is the OP of this FWR thread and the recommendations are broader, with far reaching implications for single-sex women’s services and facilities. Please take the time to read up on the proposals, as it will help you to understand why women are so alarmed and starting to protest more loudly.

Yes, it was obvious Sue had come along to gaslight at 2.30 am this morning when Sue arrived. (I had to get up for a snack, there was chocolate). I did report it on that basis but hey ho.

Sue did link a handy paper of Stephens that is very long.......

Oh, and allow others to tell you what you are

What it boils down to for me is women being told to 'be nice'.
Be nice, be understanding, don't be mean. Put others' needs above your own. Move over, budge up. Deny your instincts, don't question things that make no logical sense.

Yet we are forced to constantly bear in mind and prioritise the "authentic lives" of others.

Surely people recognize the irony of the United Nations promoting sex segregated spaces for women and girls in developing nations in the name of equality while in the developed nations the political parties seek to eradicate sex segregated spaces for women and girls in the name of equality.
Surely that should give them pause and yet it seems to give them impetus instead.

Plus, just maybe, I don't a transwoman who has done nothing to transition, so is still male bodied with stubble, to do my smear test. Perhaps I would like this done by a person who was born with a cervix, and perhaps I would like to be able to say that, without being called a transphobe.

This is the point. The majority of policy makers don't respect your feelings enough as a woman to make politically difficult choices. They expect you to concede and get over it.

On the subject of usernames I spoke with a teenage relative recently. Although he thinks trans-identity politics is madness it was also apparent that he thinks TERFs are a quite scary highly radical very organised underground movement. A bit like the ALF or something. And when I told him that wasn't the case he cited Twitter usernames as proof...

I feel gaslighted by Sue's post. "There's nothing to fear but fear itself" type rhetoric.

Women do have to fear men - because we are subjected to physical and sexual violence from them all the time. We are weaker than men, and we are targeted for sexual attacks, and harassment. All the time. Which is why we have spaces on the basis of biological sex in the first place.

Plus, just maybe, I don't a transwoman who has done nothing to transition, so is still male bodied with stubble, to do my smear test. Perhaps I would like this done by a person who was born with a cervix, and perhaps I would like to be able to say that, without being called a transphobe.

Let’s show respect and dignity to all people and not expect gender equality for us then try to deny to another.

But gender and sex are two different thing that are being conflated. Denying that men are women is not denying equality. People posting here are not opposed to options like a third space for trans people, but transactivists are insisting that transwomen literally are women, that can only be the case if you change the meaning of the word women. How would you define woman?

Laws and policies are in place to protect us now. How can anyone police an individual’s identity? Why would anyone wish to force another to live an inauthentic life?

It's a consent issue Sue. Women have the right to object to the presence of male people in female spaces. We have rights to privacy and dignity. We have boundaries. Our rights have already been eroded because no one respects the feelings of women. I will not stand by while they are further eroded. I will continue to speak out.

I’ve had the misfortune of having to use a refuge and have had counselling for major trauma. I know what it means to fear men and anyone looking masculine including predatory men and women but that is what it is fear. I’m over my fear and I wish to share nothing but love to the world.

The vast majority of people are inherently good. We shouldn’t make law based on predjudice and fear.

Do you know what? I have just come to this thread from reading an article about the verdict of that man who walked into the travel agents and slit the throat of the new lesbian girlfriend of his ex girlfriend. He did this in front of the family who were booking a holiday with the victim, including a child, plus all the victims colleagues. He had been threatening suicide and apparently said 'it was either kill me or kill her, so I killed her'. He had also being harassing his ex for a while in the lead up to the murder.

Women need protection from men. There is a reason we have laws to reduce to the risk of women being in vulnerable positions around men, and to reduce the risk of trauma for women from being in certain situations with men. The reason for this is that men commit crimes against women at such a high rate that women stood up and said 'actually, we want spaces away from men for our dignity and safety and we want this enshrined in law' , and eventually those things were granted.

So your line about 'not making laws based on prejudice and fear' seems a little..... trite, to me.