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Original poster

Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

835 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/04/2018 17:37

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

OP posts:
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Beyond11cisRetinol · 10/04/2018 12:56

Just to go back to miiiiles upthread...

Suffix -ism (as in transgenderism) doesn't necessarily imply an illness (eg hyperthyroidism).

From our old friend the dictionary definition; "a productive suffix in the formation of nouns denoting action or practice, state or condition, principles, doctrines, a usage or characteristic, devotion or adherence"

So the word transgenderism could easily imply a stance based on fact (darwinism), a religion based on belief (Hinduism), or a belief system based on dodgy personal bias (racism).

The usage of "transgenderism" is a perfectly valid word, not an insult - and claiming it is insulting looks very much like "everything is transphobic" from the outside.

flowersonthepiano · 10/04/2018 12:43

I love WAWAG too. Excellent.

Ereshkigal · 10/04/2018 12:35

Juells Grin spot on.

Ereshkigal · 10/04/2018 12:32

Concerns about prisons, sports, guides, school loos and changing rooms, sexuality, legislation, policy, society etc etc if they start from WAWAG then we have re-centred and established the truth of it....

Love WAWAG. A great name for a movement or group.

flowersonthepiano · 10/04/2018 11:45

I like the list as a starting point. I like some of the suggested modifications, particularly those from Teacup. As you put the list up as a proposed foundation for future dialogue, @Sue0001, I trust you are open to other’s input on the terms of reference of the dialogue?

AstraiaLiberty · 10/04/2018 11:37

Trans 'folk' usage - useful sealion indicator

Folk, maybe. Folx, definitely.

Juells · 10/04/2018 11:36

What does the scholarly research say about the well being of women?

It says no-one gives a fuck Grin

UpstartCrow · 10/04/2018 11:20

What does the scholarly research say about the well being of women?

Teacuphiccup · 10/04/2018 11:19

Yes another thing that says transitioning helps gender dysphoria.

No one is denying that. Transition away.

Doesn’t mean you’ve actually changed sex though so women should get to keep the right to sex based protections.

Juells · 10/04/2018 11:19

Why is all the onus on women to budge up and be supportive and not upset anyone and be inclusive and give up rights and space and hard-won protections?

Women are mugs.

ZERF · 10/04/2018 11:07

5 is problematic in this context as this describes intersex, but many biologically normal people are using it to explain their trans status without really understanding the deeper meaning. There may well be slight biological differences in the brains of people with dysphoria (I think on another thread some research looked at the area that focuses on body perception as being different) but there's a difference to that kind of explanation and chromosome and endocrine explanations.

And the biggest need in a list of that sort is to clearly distinguish sex and gender as very different things.

Juells · 10/04/2018 11:01

2. Women have a right for certain single sex services which exclude others where it is ‘proportionate and legitimate’ to do so

Women have a right for certain single sex services which exclude others.

There, fixed it for you.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/04/2018 11:00

Certainly agree with most of sues points

There are a few i just dont know enough about

I like teacups additions as well

MsBeaujangles · 10/04/2018 10:50

Sue, I like your idea about statements on which to build a dialogue. I'd like to suggest some changes in order to cut to the issue/ help us focus on they key sticking points, as many of the interests are compatible:

  1. Violence and intimidation against women by anyone is wrong
violence and intimidation is wrong. When people feel their rights/protections and interests are under threat, they can act in a defensive manner. It is important to understand and express the perceived threat and not to attach
  1. Women have a right for certain single sex services which exclude others where it is ‘proportionate and legitimate’ to do so.
Where it is proportionate and legitimate, female-bodied people have the right for provision that is designated for female-bodied people.
  1. It is wrong to erase another’s identity by deliberately misgendering them and using the wrong pronoun
We need to have vocabulary for our gender identities and vocabulary for being 1 or 2 sexes. This way people can be free to choose labels that fit with their identity and there is a language that enables the dimorphic aspects of the species to be understood and referred to where relevant.
  1. Violence and intimidation against trans people is just as wrong as it is against women
Agreed. Trans people are a vulnerable group and active steps need to be taken to ensure trans people are afforded dignity, privacy and safety.
  1. Hormonal and chromosomal abnormalities during foetal development drive incongruities of sexual characteristics for some people.
More research into the causes of people being distressed by their sexed bodies is needed in order to help alleviate suffering
  1. An individual’s gender identity, sexuality and how they express themselves is up to them
agreed
  1. Trying to imply that trans women are out to commit violence against women is highly inflammatory and not supported by evidence
When monitoring and recording crime the variables of natal sex and gender identity need to be recorded so proper evidence is gathered about patterns of crime
  1. Trans men and women have a disproportionate amount of violence committed against them.
See above. We also need to record patterns of crime throughout the UK and internationally so we can build up a pattern of what is happening and where
  1. Gender equality and equity of opportunity should be at the heart of our society
Gender equality, sex equality and equality of opportunity should be at the heart of our society 10. Children have the right to be brought up in a supportive environment were they can develop their own identity and personality agreed
AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 10/04/2018 10:50

Antigrinch
"In the past, some feminists used to take a line something like "I don't care if the facts hurt your feelings; here are the facts."

It's amusing that Ben Shapiro has a version of this as his pinned tweet.

And he's rather scathing of 'feminists'. I use the quotes because I don't think he's clear on what feminism is, or at least, think the lib fems speak for all of us

twitter.com/benshapiro/status/695638866993115136

Teacuphiccup · 10/04/2018 10:40
  1. Children have the right to be brought up in a safe environment were they can develop their own personality and body free from interference and pressure to conform, children have the right to puberty and the ability to develop a healthy sex life in the future.
Teacuphiccup · 10/04/2018 10:34

sue

I have read your points and I agree with all of them. I would like to add another if I may.

  1. Trying to imply that feminists are out to commit violence against trans women is highly inflammatory and not supported by evidence
Teacuphiccup · 10/04/2018 10:31

Sue

No one is denying the right for trans people to ‘express their identity’, honestly.
I would love to live in a world where people could live free of homophobic bullying and fear of expressing themselves due to Male violence when someone isn’t sticking to gender roles.

But the issue is is that there is a difference between sex and gender and women NEED sex based protections, if we give them up in lue of gender identity we have lost the ability to name our sex based oppression.

I support trans women to be trans women, but they are not biologically female.

I am against any violence towards trans women but keeping our protections isn’t violence it’s preservation.

I accept that life is hard for trans people, let’s look at that. Honestly I’ll fight so hard for a third space, I’ll stand shoulder to shoulder with them against Male violence. We’ve fought for our spaces we know the map of this rodeo.

Saying no is not violent.
I accept transwomen, I just don’t believe they are biological women, it’s not possible to change sex.
I’ll not misgender them, if they want to be called she, I’ll call them she but I won’t accept that they have changed sex.

Let’s face it there are very few sex based protections needed, we aren’t shunning transwomen from the lunch table just saying, these ones need to be sex based.

BrashCandicoot · 10/04/2018 10:28

7. Trying to imply that trans women are out to commit violence against women is highly inflammatory and not supported by evidence

The issue is not with transwomen - it is with imposters who may use the legislation to their own end. This is why we need language to talk about the issue bluntly. If we are supposed to accept that transwomen are women without questioning, where on earth does the idea of an imposter fit into this? We can't identify the dodgy men who are taking advantage of the legislation if we - the collective we - are not allowed to acknowledge that transwomen aren't, in fact, women.

AornisHades · 10/04/2018 10:16

Sue 5. Intersex? They've asked to be left out of this. Let's respect that.

  1. 'Die CIS scum' badges?
  2. Where's the evidence? You can't say 8 is true when you dismiss 7 so glibly.
R0wantrees · 10/04/2018 10:11

Centring as Datun says is the key.
The reason why 'terf' has had so much power is because of the 'Te'- the focus is on the exclusion of a group of people.
Language matters, the concerns that I have read her are not 'anti-trans' they are concerned about the impact that legislation, atitudes, policy etc have for women and girls...
On another post, someone (apologies as Ive just hopped back here) asked "What about women?" and this for me is the key...
What About Women And Girls?
Concerns about prisons, sports, guides, school loos and changing rooms, sexuality, legislation, policy, society etc etc if they start from WAWAG then we have re-centred and established the truth of it....

Sue0001 · 10/04/2018 10:05

Let me try to unpick the issues.

  1. Violence and intimidation against women by anyone is wrong
  2. Women have a right for certain single sex services which exclude others where it is ‘proportionate and legitimate’ to do so
  3. It is wrong to erase another’s identity by deliberately misgendering them and using the wrong pronoun
  4. Violence and intimidation against trans people is just as wrong as it is against women
  5. Hormonal and chromosomal abnormalities during foetal development drive incongruities of sexual characteristics for some people
  6. An individual’s gender identity, sexuality and how they express themselves is up to them
  7. Trying to imply that trans women are out to commit violence against women is highly inflammatory and not supported by evidence
  8. Trans men and women have a disproportionate amount of violence committed against them
  9. Gender equality and equity of opportunity should be at the heart of our society
10. Children have the right to be brought up in a supportive environment were they can develop their own identity and personality

These ought to be ten statements upon which a foundation could be built for future dialogue

Teacuphiccup · 10/04/2018 09:49

Yes grinch that really rang a bell with me that unrelated backlash. My husband is one of the good guys and even he does this from time to time. We’ll have an argument then suddenly later that day out of nowhere he’ll be saying he’s too busy to go on the day out we had planned, or he won’t come with me to see my mother.

You’re so right about this being what it is.
We have just got too big for our boots.

flowersonthepiano · 10/04/2018 09:45

AntiGrinch thanks for your insightful posts. I'm learning a lot from you.

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