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Original poster

Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

835 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/04/2018 17:37

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

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Theinconstantgardener · 28/06/2018 10:04

Yes we can!

R0wantrees · 28/06/2018 09:59

Importantant current thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3290772-Reality-check?

OP comment by Pratchet (long-standing MN member and poster on FWR)

"It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this. "

Italiangreyhound · 13/04/2018 22:56

Sorry, how can not nirvana!

Italiangreyhound · 13/04/2018 22:45

Nirvana someone get away with libel on Twitter. How can the WEP have members/a member who would say such things? It's just beyond me.

CharlieParley · 13/04/2018 21:42

Thank you everyone. I guess I was just so pissed off yesterday seeing Woman's Place UK libelled yet again as a hate group.

The Edinburgh meeting was the first women's rights meeting I've ever attended in my life and I have never before felt so much love in a public gathering, from complete strangers at that. It felt so empowering to be surrounded by women fighting for women and children.

I fear for the future. For all of us. That's why I cannot imagine a better use of my time, skills and energy than fighting for women's rights for the rest of my life.

Italiangreyhound · 13/04/2018 20:41

@CharlieParley your post at 23:06 is so moving and so true. " What possible fucking reason could I have to centre a man in my feminism?"

thebewilderness · 13/04/2018 20:31

Both Intersex organizations and WOC organizations have asked transgender advocates to stop using Intersex and Intersectionality respectively to justify their demand that women and Feminism be useful to males in stripping women of their right to privacy and dignity.

Ereshkigal · 13/04/2018 19:42

So HBE isn't allowed to express personal gender critical views but Toni is allowed to express personal misogynistic and arguably defamatory ones? That how it works?

0phelia · 13/04/2018 17:38

That Toni person is at the heart of all of the WEP's terrible decisions.

AbsintheFriends · 13/04/2018 17:34

Toni Harrison also accuses WPUK of misogyny. I'm still trying to work that one out.

MargeH · 13/04/2018 17:27

Too many people looking for their 15 mins of fame, imho.

Don't have enough talent to enter The Voice?

..... start a blog or vlog or outrageous twitter account instead.

Many of the leading TRA voices look like attention seekers to me, from my position on the sidelines.

SirVixofVixHall · 13/04/2018 16:11

They said WHAT ? I was at the WP meeting last night . It was the opposite of hate peddling. That is a libellous thing for WEP to say. Who said it ?
I feel absolute despair over the political culture now, the shutting down of debate. The lies. The lack of respect for difference of opinion, or of any attempt to empathise with women .
. Politics has started to feel like a group of spiteful adolescents point scoring.

Juells · 13/04/2018 13:49

Do you have a link to that tweet?

R0wantrees · 13/04/2018 13:13

Just in case Sue has not quite left, I share a belief that respectful nuanced discussion is desperately needed and note Sophie Walker's comment in the document linked:
"The core aim of The Women’s Equality Party is to achieve equality for women and girls so they may be free. From our first policy document in 2015 we said we would also seek a spirit of collaboration that challenged the combative culture of old politics"

A fairly prominent member of the WEP has this morning described on their twitter account that the WP (UK?) are 'an abominable organisation that preaches hate rather than debate, So does the KKK. Well maybe not the same, they don't pretend'

The people here and at WPUK are asking 'what about women & girls?'

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 13/04/2018 12:59

"WEP is all about protecting women and girls and being inclusive"

Inclusive of what? Males? If so, WTF is the point of calling it the Women's Equality Party?

Why can't males be inclusive of males who enjoy femininity?

Utter madness. And wagging your finger at grown women in disapproval is never a good look Sue

boatyardblues · 13/04/2018 12:47

In my work I used to praise Mumsnet for supporting Mums giving them a place to speak and interact together with being a supportive environment with guidance and services for Mums. Today Mumsnet has become an echo chamber for disrespectful radical feminism which has nothing to do with helping Mums and everything to do with bigotry and hate. I’m out.

This smacks so much of when, as a kid, your parents try bring you to heel by telling you how much you’ve disappointed them. Well, as the outstanding Ellen Ripley say in Aliens: “I’m happy to disappoint you.” There are always people willing to play on female socialisation to get women to STFU. There comes a point where its incumbent on us to speak up.

LangCleg · 13/04/2018 11:39

In my work I used to praise Mumsnet for supporting Mums giving them a place to speak and interact together with being a supportive environment with guidance and services for Mums. Today Mumsnet has become an echo chamber for disrespectful radical feminism which has nothing to do with helping Mums and everything to do with bigotry and hate. I’m out.

You do realise that FWR is, like, 1% of the forum activity on Mumsnet, let alone the rest of the site? Even if you don't much like what gets said on FWR, Sue, this does seem a tad hyperbolic.

Anyway. Go well, Sue.

Sue0001 · 13/04/2018 11:31

In my work I used to praise Mumsnet for supporting Mums giving them a place to speak and interact together with being a supportive environment with guidance and services for Mums. Today Mumsnet has become an echo chamber for disrespectful radical feminism which has nothing to do with helping Mums and everything to do with bigotry and hate. I’m out.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/04/2018 11:20

WEP is all about protecting women and girls and being inclusive

Unfortunately 'being inclusive' can result in not 'protecting women and girls'. It is precisely this that is the concern.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 13/04/2018 10:32

It is not possible to stand behind the agenda of self declaration without rendering the word 'woman' meaningless, dismantling sex based protections that are inconvenient to the feelings and wants of male born people, and removing the right of women and girls to privacy, consent and dignity.

WEP is emphatically not 'all about protecting women and girls'. I thought they were sitting on the fence trying to please everybody, but having seen today's tweet I see them for precisely what they are.

MsMcWoodle · 13/04/2018 10:27

Yes to 'respect and dignity'. That's why we need women only spaces. sue I don't think you have any chance persuading women here that feminism should include biological men. But still you try. Why is that?

flowersonthepiano · 13/04/2018 10:26

CharlieParley I hear you. Your post really resonates. We always put our own interests aside for the benefit of others, and it just gets taken advantage of. I've had enough of it too Flowers

UpstartCrow · 13/04/2018 10:22

WEP support the individual who punched Maria Mac, which contradicts what they say they are.

0phelia · 13/04/2018 10:17

You can be inclusive without dismantling women's rights. They have somehow been unable to understand that so far. But we are all still hoping.