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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Translation of word salad please

28 replies

Imherefornow · 06/04/2018 17:02

I genuinely want to understand why a feminist thinks that essentialising gender and obscuring sex is progressive. On twitter I was given this reply...

"Accepting& respecting diversity in expression of social constructs & intersects, oppressive hierarchies are more effectively challenged w greater potential to force power shifts, & is the basis of international human rights law.

Feminism is intersectional, or it isn't feminism."

My take on it is that by saying men who express 'woman' stereotypes are actualy women it dilutes what it means to be a woman and thus flips hierachies and expectations of intersects... Nope! Am utterly lost and this reply strikes me as abject nonsense.

However, I really would like to try and understand and would be grateful of a translation from those wiser than I

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thebewilderness · 06/04/2018 20:34

We should write the 10 rules of transactivism. Which would be basically the same but more Orwellian.
They do bear a rather shocking similarity. I think we should.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 06/04/2018 19:55

The communicative intent is: transwomen are women, justified by kind of linked phrases and buzz words the writer doesn't understand enough to use in a coherent sentence. Any teacher would return that covered in red pen.

I keep thinking of the poor homeless and addicted and desperate in Deptford having this stuff lectured at them by earnest students, who sincerely believe they're communicating some wonderful message of enlightenment.

DarthArts · 06/04/2018 19:45

It's utter tosh.

Feminism is about women.

There are feminists that focus on what you could term as "branches" of feminism - for example BAME, specific cultures/religions, socio and economic factors and clearly there can be an "intersection" between these because women can be "categorised" by a number of different factors.

However, the one think Feminism never intersects with is men.

This is why TRA's are so keen to push the trans women are women rhetoric.

If people believe this then you can co-opt womanhood and leave it linguistically indefensible by altering the definition and thus key principles of feminism.

AngryAttackKittens · 06/04/2018 19:40

PomoBot there appears to be malfunctioning. I do basically speak their language (thanks, uni sociology lectures) and even so the first paragraph is nonsense.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 19:34

We should write the 10 rules of transactivism. Which would be basically the same but more Orwellian.

thebewilderness · 06/04/2018 19:31

What it means is that they have co-opted the concept of Crenshaw's intersectionality, that examined the oppression of Black women, in order to claim that Feminism must be useful to men or it is worthless. That is the 5th rule of misogyny.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 19:26

Disappearing sex categories fails to recognise structuresof oppression and is the absolute opposite of the internationally that she advocates.

You're right, she's talking nonsense.

Datun · 06/04/2018 19:26

If biological sex becomes diluted so it's meaningless, how will people choose mates and procreate?

It also begs the question that if women's biological sex becomes meaningless, how will women's biology be accommodated in terms of health?

To be honest, she sounds daft.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 19:24

Also none of that has anything to with Int human rights laws.

That's what I thought. Complete non sequitur.

Imherefornow · 06/04/2018 19:22

Ok! So have continued the thread and the meaning of the poster is that if ones biological sex is diluted to a point that it becomes meaningless then patriarchy will fail to have an inpact.

I kinda get the logic but obviously it vastly underestimates the impact that percieved biology has had and is having on females right now.

Disappearing sex categories fails to recognise structuresof oppression and is the absolute opposite of the internationally that she advocates.

I am. Confudulued Confused

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Datun · 06/04/2018 18:02

Does it mean that if you mess with gender you upset the hierarchy where women are at the bottom and men at the top?

If so, truly messing with gender would do that.

Men doing half the housework, half the child rearing, half the taking care of the elderly. Women's biology having absolutely zero impact on the way they are treated.

That's messing with gender.

Clothes, make up, etc, denoting sex does nothing to mess with gender.

And pretending biology doesn't exist is pointless, and doesn't address the reasons why we have gender in the first place.

BarrackerBarmer · 06/04/2018 17:51

I can translate this bit for you:

"Feminism is intersectional, or it isn't feminism."

It means

"Feminism will include men, or else I'll get called a TERF"

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 06/04/2018 17:37

This reply has been deleted

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Imherefornow · 06/04/2018 17:36

No. You are right crow.
I am nothing if not patient on twitter.
But I really can't help but want to understand why and how a female trans ally justifies this stance.

I get all the conditioned "be nice, inclusive' aka give way to what men want thing but when I get a bite that tries to rationalize it I am intrigued!

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UpstartCrow · 06/04/2018 17:27

Imherefornow Looking at that thread I'm not entirely convinced they are posting in good faith.

@ooffydarls
i don't see sex'= sexism

‏*@beccalamjig*
No.
"I don't see gender" = cis privilege

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 06/04/2018 17:27

Nah im with you imhere

Made sense for the first few posts then it was word soup

TinyRick · 06/04/2018 17:25

They are a Libfem who retweets Owen Jones.

Their 'feminism' doesn't include lesbians. Their point (whatever it was) is moot.

Imherefornow · 06/04/2018 17:21

I suck at posting on MN it doesn't work like twitter Blush

Appologies Grin

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Imherefornow · 06/04/2018 17:19

I think you nailed it Flavia! Grin

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Imherefornow · 06/04/2018 17:16

That's really interesting crow. I will go read up some more on that. Thanks

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Imherefornow · 06/04/2018 17:12

Nope! This was it and I thought the same and waited for more Confused

Here is how the thread began

twitter.com/beccalamjig/status/982189863767162881?s=19

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UpstartCrow · 06/04/2018 17:09

...''& is the basis of international human rights law.''

No it isnt. The basis of international human rights law is the argument that your rights end where mine begin, which is not supported by identity over biologically.
Also, that human rights are unconditional - and that is the actual basis for intersectionality as described by Dr Crenshaw.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberl%C3%A9_Williams_Crenshaw
''Crenshaw often refers to the case DeGraffenreid v. General Motors in writing, interviews, and lectures. In DeGraffenreid v. General Motors, a group of African American women argued they were receiving compound discrimination excluding them from employment opportunity. They contended that although women were eligible for office and secretarial jobs, in practice such positions only were offered to white women, barring African American women from seeking employment in the company. The courts weighed the allegations of race and gender discrimination separately, finding that the employment of African American male factory workers disproved racial discrimination, and the employment of white female office workers disproved gender discrimination. The court declined to consider compound discrimination, and dismissed the case.''

Imherefornow · 06/04/2018 17:09

Oh good! I'm ever so glad that someone agrees.

The linguistic acrobatics continues to astound me yet I can't help but try to unpick the logic

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FlakyToast · 06/04/2018 17:09

Are you missing off the end or the start? Despite the length it reads as though it is the begining or end of a thought.

FlakyToast · 06/04/2018 17:07

"experessing diversity of race is fabulous too"

As Rachel Dolezal does iyswim.

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