Ulster Rugby trial -continued

However, he does make a good point about Bill Clinton. In the age of 'me too' it looks like he got off very lightly

Oh goodness yes. I do feel sorry for Monica Lewinsky. And if I'm being honest if I were an American voter I would, to paraphrase Mhairi Black on voting for Brexit, have been voting for Hillary Clinton whilst holding my nose. Hillary's "stand by your man" take on it was depressing.

Sorry, I worded that badly. I don't feel any sympathy for them at all because of what they did. I feel sorry that they ended up where they are, with the attitudes that they have, and their absolute belief that this way of thinking and acting is ok.

I feel sorry for all young men who grow up in an arena where it appears to be generally accepted that this is ok. I wonder did anyone, ever, say "hang on a sec", leave a WhatsApp group, walk away from a party. Or were they continuously, their whole lives, supported and encouraged to think that this is normal.

On a personal level my belief is that their actions are inexcusable; my personal sympathy lies 100% with the girl in this case (and the many girls who have been left feeling at best shit about themselves, and at worst physically damaged by these men and many others who have a warped sense of what is ok. I'm glad they were sacked; it may be treating a symptom only, but it's a symptom that needs treating.

I too am disgusted by the acceptance that because Bill Clinton happened to be president of the USA at the time "peace" broke out that everything else he did appears to have been forgiven

I don't feel sorry for them either. They're entitled arseholes however you look at it.

I'm getting the strong impression this bloke secretly feels sorry for them but unlike Ched Evans' apologists hasn't got the guts to say so.

I agree with this. It's all dressed up in oh so reasonable language and concerns about the 'braying mob' of social media, but ultimately seems to think they should have had a rap on the knuckles and that's it.

However, he does make a good point about Bill Clinton. In the age of 'me too' it looks like he got off very lightly.

I'm the same @NotTakenUsername I don't feel any sympathy for them. Agree that yes sacking them perhaps doesn't get to the root of the problem but something had to happen.

It's a societal issue in my opinion and not just something rugby lads get involved in. I think a lot of girls and boys today think certain behaviour is acceptable / normal and for the girls feel like they can't say anything.

As mentioned on other posts attitudes towards porn and what people are watching has to to have influence on what people do then when they go out and drink or whatever.

It's all just a bit of fun and banter and sure aren't we legends.

I don’t feel any sympathy for them.

I think a lot of people feel sorry for them; in a way I do myself (while absolutely condemning what they said and what they did). I believe they got pissed and did what they did pretty much every night; this particular night they picked a girl who was young and inexperienced and (quite rightly) not ok with they way they behaved. I feel sad for them that the lives they led made them think that the way they were behaving was ok.

But it's the same feeling of pity society used to have for those caught driving over the limit (when everyone did it but only a few got caught) or for those who get clamped (when half the world parks illegally) or gets points for speeding (when everyone does 70 in a 60 zone)

Even if we accept their assertions that they believed she consented, they still hurt her badly, talked about women in an appalling way, and demonstrated a level of misogyny that makes them unsuitable as a role model for children. Failing to discipline them for their behaviour would leave the IRFU in particular (whatever about UR) on a very stick wicket.

Sacking them may be treating the "symptom" not the cause - but that's a start isn't it? A start and a warning that this type of behaviour is not ok.

I agree with Lass here. Ewan sounds like he believes their behaviour was just fine, boisterous high spirits if you will. Same as the not rapist Ched Evans' apologists do.

They have been found not guilty, no real surprises there when it comes to rape, but their behaviour was despicable, Olding admitted as much. If you are an elite of any field, whether that be rugby, law, baking, whatever, if you behave despicably, you forfeit your right to remain part of your tribe's elite.

This isn't McCarthyism, it's a sporting body disciplining people who have signed up for that discipline. They haven't been banned for life, no doubt someone will employ their sorry arses, but Ulster have drawn a line under their employment with them in the same way as any company would draw a line under an employee bringing their company into disrepute.

I don't agree with the premise and construct of that article either. It's comparisons to McCarthyism have no merit. Any employer who had been affected so negatively by the behaviour of employees should absolutely consider termination of their contract if a) it violates their code of conduct (the article makes the fair point it is unclear what that code actually is and has called out double standards on previous behaviour) and b) if the behaviour is likely to negatively impact their brand.

The point around social media has been skewed. In this case social media has called such attention to the conduct that it cannot be swept under the carpet. This is an excellent use of social media forcing businesses to make good decisions from a societal point of view rather than purely business. It has also been an excellent opportunity for women's voices to be heard in a male dominated environment!

Reading it again I find it weaselly and unpleasant.

That's because, while the knee-jerk reaction to Ulster Rugby's decision is to heap praise, it raises a couple of key points

Knee jerk reaction? Really?

When it came to Jackson and Olding, while a ruling of not guilty shouldn't equate to innocence given the burden of proof, a ruling of not guilty shouldn't equate to guilty either. Only it has done, and that ought to terrify when an accusation takes precedence over legal verdicts

They were not sacked because their employer thought they were guilty of rape despite the verdict. They were sacked because of the other appalling behaviour.

Conflating what happened to them with McCarthyism is hyperbolic.

Sorry I'm getting the strong impression this bloke secretly feels sorry for them but unlike Ched Evans' apologists hasn't got the guts to say so.

i think the question of the role social media plays in driving responses to a number of issues - not just cases like this - is one which urgently needs addressing

Actually this is interesting, because one of the things social media does is give a voice to those whose voice under represented.

So the social media pressure here is coming from predominately women, who for once are able to make their opinions known on how rape cases are handled and the culture of high profile male sports.

I understand why men have found that immensely threatening.

I disagree that the article doesn’t have any real point to make. I think the question of the role social media plays in driving responses to a number of issues - not just cases like this - is one which urgently needs addressing in today’s world. And I’m not sure why you say “why would we prioritise that when attitudes need to be improved” as if he doesn’t say that in the article.

What specifically makes it “male special pleading”?

I don't think that article has any real point to make other than that Irish Rugby and BOI have behaved more morally in this instance than they have done in the past.

The article damns this on the grounds of inconsistency, but why would we prioritise that when attitudes need to be improved, not kept in the dark ages?

It read like more male special pleading to me.

And Lass is totally right about how this would be handled in a regular private sector job.

summacummamumma Imagine if that isn’t true... for that matter imagine if it is? What about the victim’s right to privacy?

I don't think it is a particularly good article so far as it deals with the termination of the contract. Their entirely legal, admitted and undisputed behaviour had the potential of bringing their employer into disrepute with consequent commercial and financial risks.

However unilaterally and immediately terminating a contract, particularly an employment contract is not a doddle.

You can see it as a "pay off" - the reality it gets rid of the person in the most efficient way. You can spend x amount fighting it and tie up managerial time fighting it in public or come to a settlement.

I have no doubt that if they had been employees of my firm we would have done the same.

Thank you LivingBoy that is a very well considered article.
Round of applause for Ewan.

This is a thoughtful article on the fact that sacking the men is tackling the symptoms rather than the causes of the disease, here

Totally agree @Somerville this is not worth bringing up as it's not just gossip or hearsay it's a young woman's life and reality for the rest of her life. Not for any one of us to speculate or pass on what we may have heard.

I think you should delete that post

I agree Somerville

There is lots of local gossip about the victim and about further details of the case, but loads of it is wrong. So I don't think it's helpful to share it - it further affects her dignity.

@BananaBat - finished asking for it today & thought it was great, disturbing similarities in places to the UR case

Alsross thanks - that is an good article

Very saddened too to see that this thread was basically hijacked and religion came into to this which I believe has nothing to do with it also just wanted to give a big hug to bumblefumble as a mother to another 💐xx

This is a very interesting article in relation to what females deal with surrounding sex and life in general.
theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure