Ulster Rugby trial -continued

I didn't see the Wright Show but I think Germaine Greermust have been talking about the Commonwealth swimmer rape trail that is going on atm
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/commonwealth-games-swimmer-rape-women-sex-friend-latest-otto-putland-a8289861.html

The girl had consensual sex with the swimmer who then passed her on to his mate

Reddit thread ffs

What struck me about that reddit bread is that no one thought about or mentioned the girl at all really. Like to go ‘how awful if it’s true, I hope she’s okay’ or anything. A few ‘rape is awful’ type generalisms, and lots of chat about how awful it would be for their careers etc, the poor guys.

cleebope

I saw that too

And then i had to switch off as i was getting a bit annoyed

Germaine Greer has just briefly discussed it on The Wright Stuff but she erred by stating that the girl had consensual sex with a first man before being raped by a second. So I don’t think she has read the details closely but she is arguing how exceedingly difficult it is to secure a conviction for rape especially if the victim has been drinking. Of course MatthewWright was playing devil’s advocate by saying that the other three girls all testified for the men . Did they? I thought their evidence was fairly neutral although rape was not obvious to the girl who peeped in. They did see sex obviously. I wish Germaine had been more incisive there in her comments to argue more deeply.

Can we not pretend this is something "new".

I've been on the side or touch lines of club rugby in Ulster for over 40 years (argghh) Brother, Father and Son play(ed).

"Ladies" were always asked to leave post match drinks after a while back in the 80's when things got bawdy, and the veneer of the gentleman's game was about to be somewhat tarnished. Brother attended another big rugby school in east Belfast allegedly a cut above, an all male preserve and the following Harry Enfield parody about sums them up, I have strong memories of my youth with blokes like this about:

I never got around to worshipping at the altar of the first XV, but I had a giggle at the comment. Many friends did, some treated well others like an accessory. Wandering hands at that age were par for the course, so I'm not going to blame rugby players alone for that.

It was ever thus, rugby players and "totty". It may have become more polarised of late, but the seeds were certainly set back in the day today's blazer wearing administrators were playing.

Rugby is a big deal in NI, it's a society thing too. Rugby is old school, and hasn't moved on really (with the exception of women's rugby - Heifer comments anyone ? www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43214108 ) There is still a play hard , drink hard, party even harder element to it. Practical "jokes" that would make your eyes water are endemic and are tantamount to bullying. From putting deep heat in each other's jock straps through to debaggings and far worse it all leads to a culture where the bigger the jape the funnier it allegedly is but often there is some poor youngster going home and crying on his Mum's shoulder trying desperately to fit in with his new team mates. "I'm hard", "I play rugby" is a macho sign of respect in the all male circles. We need and God I don't know who "we" in this case is need to make these lads see that actually now pissing in your mates beer glass in public does not make you man, it makes you a bloody idiot and stop turning a "blind eye".

How? I have no idea where to start. You think you've tried to bring kids up to respect women, you think your brother too will treat women with the same respect as his family. They then meet this culture, are drawn into it, and really I haven't a bloody clue who they become then. I've seen the carnage in a rugby club bar at closing time, it's not pleasant.

I am getting increasingly irritated (just seen this below a Times article) by the way in which “not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” becomes synonymous with “innocent”. They weren’t “found innocent”, ffs; the jury simply didn’t feel the prosecution had proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Why do some people find that so hard to understand?

I have seen this floating around the internet lately in relation to this case and think it should be much more prominently used when reporting on verdicts.

Reddit thread from a year ago that's quite interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/6phw02/ulsteranddirelandrugbysspaddyjacksonnandstu/?utmmsource=amp&utmmedium=commentt_list

Well done to everyone who joined in on the crowd funding for this...
amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/advert-published-calling-on-ireland-and-ulster-to-ditch-duo-36779249.html

CG in the transcripts is Craig Gilroy, so there is at least one other Whatsapp group with extra people.

I thought Craig Gilroy sent his message privately to Stuart Olding? He was quite explicit in his Twitter apology that it was a private message.

This is depressing, this is the judge's instructions to the jury

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/judge-tells-rugby-rape-trial-jury-only-a-unanimous-verdict-will-be-acceptable-36750613.html

Generalising that it's "rugby culture" is letting them off the hook. No it's not. It's not ok to behave like this.

I don't think anyone considering the culture of the schools or clubs is saying that it's ok. Nor that it is every player. Absolutely it's not ok. Yes there is individual responsibility. That doesn't change because there might also be a wider problem. It would be a mistake not to recognise the cultural element to it. I don't see at all how that is letting them off the hook. To not acknowledge the bigger picture could mean other young people, other woman, could continue to be hurt by that culture.
So I hope that Methody and any other school, the rugby clubs etc look at what's happening and what they can learn from it.

JACOME is a group of six - Jackson, Olding, McIlroy, and three other rugby players. The initials being their surnames. CG in the transcripts is Craig Gilroy, so there is at least one other Whatsapp group with extra people.

I can only go by my son, who may well be the equivalent of the Methody players in a school "down south" but who seems to have escaped the adoration and thankfully appears to be (possibly thanks to very vocal dd) aware of how appallingly some men treat women. He is in multiple WhatsApp groups. While I don't believe he is a saint, I'm hopeful that, judging by his reaction to this case, that the JACOME messages aren't the norm.

I know NAMALT is irritating, but seriously, not all rugby players are like this. I've mentioned this before; dd has come across the Leinster players many times out on the town in Dublin. She is full of praise for them; they have all treated her and her friends and all the girls she knows with respect. Yes, they are all a bit starstruck when they meet them, but I've never heard any negatives at all.

Not all rugby players, rugby schools, rugby clubs are like this. Generalising that it's "rugby culture" is letting them off the hook. No it's not. It's not ok to behave like this. The vast majority of rugby players don't think as these guys do (though I accept twitter is a tad depressing ).

We shouldn't in any way excuse them by saying "this is how rugby players behave". It isn't, and they shouldn't.

I was thinking similar to you Maryz. With them being so high profile I’m not sure it’s so likely to be other allegations/convictions.

I found the WhatsApp transcripts a little confusing with what was to JACOME, what was between individuals and whether there were more groups. Do we know what JACOME is and who was in it? One article seemed to suggest Rory Harrison wasn’t in JACOME.

Fucked is absolutely plastered in Ireland too. Drugs would be more likely to be "wasted" - though even that could mean drink. I'm certainly not defending them, but I'm not convinced by the drugs suggestions. I think it's more likely the deleted messages are even-further-beyond-the-pale misogyny.

I'm also not convinced that the suppressed evidence is other allegations. They will be in more than one WhatsApp group; maybe the other one contains worse messages from the point of view of their attitude, but doesn't specifically mention their activities on that particular night; hence disallowed.

Their problem, though, is that if reporting is restricted, that gives the public the opportunity to imagine the worst possible scenario. They might be better taking a deep breath, letting it all out, and hoping that it will eventually blow over. Otherwise they risk it coming out later.

I would be suggesting they get legal advice, but Jackson's legal advice doesn't seem so hot at the moment

I went to Belfast Royal Academy, a school similar to Methody - girls/boys , protestant/catholic, with rugby being regarded as the sport of the elite. This was many (!) years before dinosaurkisses and at that time although there was the odd unimpressive male in terms of behaviour to girls, most, including most of the rugby team were fun and respectful. I am still friends with some. I think the culture has changed a lot.

I’m just catching up with this again and I cannot actually believe these horrible fuckers were found not guilty. Those messages turned my stomach, what a disgusting group. Brave girl for trying to get them convicted.

It’s so interesting to find out more about this rugby means all attitude from a lot of schools and communities. It reminds me of American football, where the star quarterback of a particular college can do no wrong. The fact that we’ve had another top shagger swimmer accused just makes me think what a toxic environment sports can create for women. Where do these supposed sporting heroes get this attitude from? It’s happening everywhere - football, rugby, swimming; just a general culture of revolting attitudes to women at best and rape at worst.

I’m very interested in how we can challenge a culture of toxic masculinity that so subserviates (sp?) women to the point they are viewed as something to be passed around. I’ve got a lovely little one year old boy, and we live somewhere with a couple of great grammar schools, and I was thinking of encouraging him into rugby because I like watching it a lot more than football. I don’t want to encourage him into any sport which has this culture.

Whilst I acknowledge it is not women’s responsibility to change this culture, I am interested in how it starts, how it grows and how it can be stopped. Thank you to the poster who offered such good insight into the socioeconomic circumstances in NI as I can see clearly why rugby is such a big deal there. Why the other sports though? Why other countries, and communities? I would be interested to find out if there was a common denominator.

it was McIlroy bragging about “pumping” a girl two nights in a row. Not Olding.
Yes I spotted that inconsistency too.

And it also mentioned towards the end that Olding (Stu) is in with another girl.

Was it McIlroy who said he had oral sex with her in his statement and people's theory was that he got his story wrong and accidentally gave Oldings. Seems the other way around??