Ulster Rugby trial -continued

That article is extremely thought provoking alsross

I’m uneasy with the suggestion that men shrug off sexual abuse and rape. The effects on male children and teens are profound.
Perhaps the way in which men process these events are different? some therapists will tend to sit to the side of a male patient rather than directly in front, or walk together and talk. And the men’s shed movement suggests that men deal with issues by working. I don’t think therapy, counseling and even the language we use around rape is not as accessible to men, maybe? And perhaps also, abuse gets channeled into anger and violence? Just musing really. But I’m very uneasy with the idea that it would have no effect.

I do think that many men’s understanding of rape (of women) is that it is a bad sexual experience, but they don’t grasp that there can be an immense threat of physical injury or death that goes along side the act.

I thought this was a very interesting article on some of the issues around consent from a linguistic point of view.
essentially the least powerful person in a situation is held to the highest standards of clarity, in the eyes of the law even though “for those who are relatively powerless, there’s a vested interest in staying polite, staying safe, and complying with directions, and so people in these fraught situations tend to be even more linguistically indirect and sound more uncertain“

@Dibbosteme my interpretation of the review is that it's more looking at the anonymity side of things for the accused like we have in the Republic of Ireland

@ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo that's an excellent point about men actually thinking of themselves in that situation instead of their wife, mother, sister etc

Let's hope so Eloise. As it becomes apparent that at present PJ and SO are not exactly inundated with offers from other clubs, the law of unintended consequences is alive and kicking.

I posted this link a week or so ago but I thought I'd share again in case you'd missed it. It goes along with what you ladies have been talking about. I just don't know how we go about fixing things.
"Female price of male pleasure".
theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure

Dibbosteme
At least some good will come from the appalling ordeal suffered by the victim.

Zibbidoo That's almost exactly what I said to my (male) partner. He finally started to get it, I think.

Dibbosteme Really glad to hear that; thanks for the link!

kikashi That's really interesting. I've been thinking of it as a straight man thing, but maybe it's broader than that. Scary.

Thanks Dibbosteme. That sounds hopeful.

Zibbidoo YOU are spot on.

Cards I agree that men don't really get it. An old friend of mine who is a gay man and lives life on the "meat rack" says he doesn't understand women and why they make everything so emotional about sex (he had a female fiance for 10 years, no sex, both "religious"). He says that men think totally differently about sex. He often has "bad sex" and injury - guys who he hadn't expected joining in etc. You just suck it up and move on - it happens - so why can't the girl in this case? She is just being overly emotional (like most women) according to his experience.

Serious sex crimes review announced today.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43880579

I think most men don't really understand why sexual assault is a bad thing. They've been told it's bad but they have no real idea why. The men who post angrily in social media, who think the 'lads' have been 'found innocent' and shouldn't suffer any consequences, don't have the faintest idea what the problem actually is.

And it's reflected in the assumptions of defence lawyers: after all, this woman has a sexual history, what's the problem with another penis or two? It's actually quite bizarre. At least the response to the trial has highlighted the need for change, but I'm not very sure that most men actually understand why change is important because they simply can't imagine why sexual assault is such an awful thing. Or am I too pessimistic?

List of people to blame for PJ’s behaviour:
1)PJ
2)... ... ...

Rape is a difficult crime to prove beyond reasonable doubt, often due to the lack of witnesses and the he said/she said element.

We should probably take comfort in the outcome of the Ulster Rugby Trial, because the ultimate outcome was that the players involved lost their jobs and at present have no clubs rushing to sign them up.

The total irony is that this wasn't because the jury found them guilty beyond reasonable doubt, but because of things they wrote themselves on Whats App, which were published, as a result of the case being tried in court. I bet the players involved and their families are kicking themselves at what they have lost through sheer arrogance and stupidity.

Many men posting on social media are outraged, but like rape complainants cannot do much about it. Let them suck it up, as many women have done for years.

Hopefully others will learn lessons through this sorry tale and professional sportsmen of the future will be better educated by their employers.

No other crime would ever accept consent of said crime via not screaming or not saying no.

If you hit someone, you're assaulting them. If they froze and didn't scream, they're consenting to a beating?

Someone breaks into your house, you don't scream. In fact, you let them take whatever they want. Did you just consent to being burgled?

Why is rape any different? Why is it always, she's lying, she probably regretted sex, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned bullshit.

Even when young girls are raped, the excuses are about girls looking older, being prick teases, leading on the poor menz etc

Bit like polanski. Saying all young girls want it

Also, what about their messages when they said 'how old? What school?' Answered with 'hopefully and don't know'

Assume they meant hopefully not under 16?

Good point about tapping out thebewilderness

And yet any person who has trained in martial arts will tell you that when you are in pain the first thing that goes is your ability to speak and that is why we slap the mat or our thigh to signal stop.

Just seen this it seems under current law not screaming can equal to giving consent according to barrister.
You don't need to obtain enthusiastic active consent as so many consent classes teach you. Which will make these new classes UR are making their players take useless
m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/rugby-players-to-receive-sexual-relationship-classes-following-jackson-and-olding-rape-trial-36834001.html

This is so depressing

I'm not usually an Indo reader, but it's nice to see some righteous anger being directed at the club and culture of the supporters here

LassWi
I couldn't have voted for Hilary Clinton because of her utterings re not being some Tammy Wynette standing by her man and then doing exactly that

And for other reasons too

Yes, one should treat with suspicion anyone who has more to say about hating mobs on social media than hating mobs who have sex with a woman until her vagina is torn and congratulate each other when she leaves the premises in tears the next day. Especially when they don't understand that they haven't been sacked for being rapists. Makes it sound like that person views some baying mobs as more equal than others.