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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Excellent article by trans woman - "A Plea To Trans Activists: We Can Protect Trans Rights Without Denying Biology"

34 replies

Italiangreyhound · 04/04/2018 01:33

Excellent article by trans woman - "A Plea To Trans Activists: We Can Protect Trans Rights Without Denying Biology"

quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

Don't necessarily expect any chit chat on it, just wanted to promote it as it is very good and very clear.

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RedToothBrush · 05/04/2018 10:48

I come from a place where politics arrived with a bomb when I was 14.

Politics therefore were not something that were not something that didn't touch me. To understand the world, I had to understand politics.

To move on, you have to have someone prepared to step in and talk of reconciling differences.

This is why I get just so annoyed at the politicians for not understanding or valuing that.

This is why trans fits in with the wider politics of division today, where we have retreated to our own communities and they just yell into social media, instead of sorting this out properly.

This is perhaps why I am just so disgusted by Jeremy Corbyn and Jo Swinson (I've not seen comment by Vince Cable, so thats why I mention her).

Jeremy Corbyn has built a reputation as a 'man of peace'. The LD are supposed to be the centrist party and to believe in moderation in politics.

But when it comes to the crunch they are indulging in what? Where are they? What are they doing to resolve the situation? To build political consensus. In any area.

For all the platitudes of 'more in common' that they hail as virtuous there this.

Part of the process isn't merely to go we are all alike. It is to celebrate why we are different and why that is actually ok. Its this thing of respect.

That's why I struggle so much. Every effort thrown back in the face because you don't simply agree and don't simply conform.

The world would be a worst place if we had to do that.

I'm a bit emotional, as i've just watch Patrick Kielty's excellent documentary 'my dad, the peace deal and me' which has reminded me of just why I got into politics and studied journalism in the first place.

I've had enough of them and us politics. Nothing good ever comes of it.

Materialist · 04/04/2018 19:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 04/04/2018 19:29

Very eloquent redtoothbrush. I wish the politicians would listen to you.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 04/04/2018 15:05

RedToothBrush StarStarStarGin

RealityHasALiberalBias · 04/04/2018 14:31

RedToothBrush I've wondered the same thing about how much of the online heat is being generated by the likes of professional agitators who are being paid to contribute to the destabilisation of our politics.

Of course enough of the abusive tweets are real, but it's impossible to know who is behind the keyboard these days. It's all very worrying for democracy.

rowdywoman1 · 04/04/2018 12:36

I am always glad when RedToothBrush shares her analysis. I don't know how you know that you know Red, but just as on the Brexit threads, you always shed light when you speak. Thank you.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 12:31

Of course the cynic in me might also consider how in modern politics with Cambridge Analyticas micro targetting in the news, how having a handy group to deliberately provoke micro aggressions might be a deliberate ploy to attract people who buy into identity politics into your canp and entrench them. (Paper I was reading last night about micro aggressions which I linked to on the LD LGBT thread, is utterly fascinating and thought provoking.

If this is the case and is deliberate from political parties, it would favour a hard left / hard right / extreme liberal identity / extreme authoritarian identity model to do fuck all to resolve conflict.

In which case TRAs would be being used and the political party would have no real interest in making life better for trans people in reality. Indeed these political parties would have a vested interest in shitting all over trans people and creating a hostile environment for them, so they have a victim on tap to role out for pr purposes...

...and would show an even bigger contempt for women than you already might think.

I'd love for a party to prove me wrong, and show they give a shit about society and aren't totally obsessed with power.

LoopOfHenle · 04/04/2018 12:28

Love this article, thank you Debbie if you're around

HomeTerf · 04/04/2018 11:04

judder, if you're on the desktop site there should be a little bookmark button in the bottom right corner of each post. If you're on the mobile site click on the three little dots in the bottom right and a bookmark option will appear.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 11:01

TRAs have come at a particular time, when wider politics have allowed it. I think its too easy to become inward looking and see it as an issue in isolation.

When you start to put it into that context you can remove some of the emotion from it. You have to step back from the brink and away from that in order to be able to offer anything constructive.

The emotional investment that TRAs and people like Mermaids have in this, makes them by nature, not always the people best placed to offer a leadership perspective. Because they can not step back from that emotion. This is what makes identity politics, at times, so toxic.

Yes trans people MUST be closely involved in the process as it is all about them ultimately, but they also need to understand that they are not the only ones with a vested interest even if they do not want to admit this. If they can not manage to step back from their own emotions, and do this, they should not be the ones in leadership roles on this. It becomes essential that a third party intervenes and assesses things from a position which isn't so involved. This isn't 'cis-plaining', or trying to remove trans people from making decisions about themselves. Its about helping them communicate better with others.

The reasons why there is a communication breakdown also strike me as something which needs closer examination in terms of helping the trans community as a whole in every day life.

TheGoldenBough · 04/04/2018 10:22

I'd be interested to read a reasonable TRA response to that, red.

HuckfromScandal · 04/04/2018 10:18

Red, wow just wow, so eloquent and just bang on the money

Judder · 04/04/2018 10:15

Red I love all your posts here and wish I had your clarity of thought. Please can someone tell me how to bookmark?

BudgieInABeret · 04/04/2018 10:08

Another excellent post red

HomeTerf · 04/04/2018 10:07

Red I'm always impressed by your posts. But this one is particularly fantastic. Bookmarking, with thanks.

LangCleg · 04/04/2018 10:07

WHAT. RED. SAID!

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 10:03

Why is it not required that lesbians are represented on political party LGBT executives as policy, if there is under representation of them?

Their absence is striking.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 09:59

Right now we are stuck in a cycle of one side being wound up by the other.

Women want to discuss things, to understand things and to know that they will be safe.

TRAs take the defensive line in viewing this as aggressive even when its well meaning, trying to be sensitive and trying to engage.

Twitter makes this particularly difficult, as everyone just gets blocked for the slightest thing.

The anger and aggression and lack of respect that women are reading in return makes them feel threatened. Indeed many comments they are seeing reflect directly experiences with abusive males. The pattern of gaslighting, the shouting of abuse, the over sensitivity and explosive reaction if you don't do or say the right thing.

This is combined with an absolutionist position and denial of why biological can not be ignored. Since biology is the source of most concerns of women and how they themselves define themselves this is a line that has to be respected and understood. If it is not, then there will always be anxiety, tension and fear of trans women. It is unavoidable.

The law might say one thing, but the law is not always right and can be tyrannical. You have to also bring people along socially. You can not force people or it breeds resentment and again fear.

All political parties and institutions need to have a good hard look at this and how they defuse the situation. Putting TRAs into office and positions of responsibility within the party means they should be acteding responsibly and held to account where they over step the mark, and cause friction. They should be trained in confliction resolution and how to de-escalate situations. Instead, they seem to be the very people making the problem worse not better. They are not being held to account for defending people, who in any other situation would be deemed socially unacceptable. In aligning with people who are behaving in a way that women perceive to be confrontational and aggressive women recoil and become fearful.

That political parties are not doing this, and are engaging themselves in patterns of behaviour and repeating mantras directly from TRAs rather than understanding that the process is as important as the end goal, and that language is powerful and provokes reactions that are understandable is poor.

It is a failure of political parties to manage effective communication and to show leadership on this matter.

It is a failure of institutions not to understand when a group is a lobby group rather than a group which is taking a balanced approach which works for all concerned in all situations.

Characterising women as the bad guys for the failures of those who should be the grown ups in the room is not acceptable. Women are responding in a way which has always instinctively kept them safe. That this isn't properly understood, shows the privilege of never having been in that environment. This comes from protected middle class women (mainly white) and men. This is not a coincidence.

The entire thing smacks of a gross inability to see the wood for the trees by political leadership. Its happening not just on this particular subject but on many others, because of inadequate and poor representation of key groups or at the very least people with proper in depth experience of those groups and a good understanding of the dynamics of power.

Honestly my mind boggles at all this. Its not difficult stuff.

Instead the situation is being aggravated. You can't hold a conversation on twitter. Women have been harassed and hounded and told to shut up in a myriad of different ways. So they organise and group together to get a louder voice so they can be heard. They talk in one place that they are allowed. So the TRAs start to attack that. Under such a situation which women perceive to be as under siege, you are going to get backs up. You are going to get women being angry and at times aggressive. Because its a defensive reaction. Its not coming from nothing. Its not suddenly appeared from no where. Its not malicious.

The very concept of 'transphobia' implies irrational anxiety. There is nothing irrational here. Its all very rational.

It can be sorted and resolved with the right political will and leadership.

Where is it? Who is stepping up to the plate?

All of this comes back to TRAs refusing to debate because they think its about removing their identity. Well tough shit. If you want to move your situation forward you are going to have to work to defuse the situation. You are going to have to earn respect and trust. Women are not just going to give it blindly, because they can't. They have to trust their instincts and a lifetime of being socialised to understand situations that leave them at risk. And especially after everything that has gone on.

Refusal to engage has helped to deteriorate the situation. It has contributed to one in which no one can be civil.

These kinds of situations are never resolved by authoritarian means. Ever.

And it beggars belief that the political parties that are involved here are all supposed to be liberal but have no concept of conflict resolution.

'Because Transphobia'.

IT.IS.NOT.GOOD.ENOUGH.

LangCleg · 04/04/2018 09:17

Debbie does bring quite a lot to the table, I think. I don't agree with everything Debbie says - in particular, I've seen support for Mermaids, which I consider to be an abusive, dangerous, reprehensible organisation.

But Debbie understands that legalities do not confer social acceptance. Debbie understands the importance of a shared but unregulated social compact - roughly speaking, if you don't force male pattern behaviour on women whether they like it or not, if you don't gaslight them with transwomen are women, if you don't take places on their affirmative action lists, if you don't insist you should be able to work in DV refuges, then the daily acceptance will come organically vis a vis toilets and changing rooms. Debbie understands that women intuit the sex of people they interact with and that they risk assess male people almost unconsciously. Debbie understands that true social acceptance relies on TIMs not setting off women's spidey senses in the way the TRAs seem almost proud of.

It's a valuable perspective.

LeatherTuscadero · 04/04/2018 08:17

"Women’s boundaries are hardly secure if they have to rely on the assumption that men wouldn’t do that, would they?"

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 04/04/2018 07:44

Good article. Thanks Debbie, if you're about Flowers

rowdywoman1 · 04/04/2018 07:04

@RedToothBrush
Brilliant post to wake up to. Flowers

TheGoldenBough · 04/04/2018 07:01

Exactly, red.

splendide · 04/04/2018 03:32

I think it’s a good article and quite reflective of my personal views.

Italiangreyhound · 04/04/2018 03:26

@RedToothBrush excellently put.

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