Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

"In the ladies, with the rest of us who are legally women. "

We are not "legally" women >>>

We ARE women.

Female is a material reality, without which there'd be no human race. The other piece being Male, also a material reality, also without which there'd be no human race.

Male and female are not social constructs, nor are they legal concepts. They are material states that have been around since before language, and exist in all mammals, and all mammals know which is which.

@53rdWay

When you sit back and allow the kind of aggression that 'TheDukesOfHazzard' demonstrates, it really does undermine the idea that what you're looking for is to be listened to and to have reasoned debate.

We need a bit of 'not in my name'. We need a bit of self moderation.

You're right, Stillscreaming, none of on here are feminists and worse, we are terrible women, because it is all our fault that women in NI are denied basic abortion rights. And we are nasty bigots because we think that girls and young women should have a voice and be listened to. And we are not playing nicely when men tell us what to do and what to say and what to think, and we should be very sorry and think about our actions.

FFS

that teenagers and their rights are mere collateral in a fight for trans right

Couldn't agree more. Any amount of collateral damage is acceptable. It turns my stomach.

There is no doubt that the 3rd space option will be expensive

There is a precedent, that's not insurmountable. When the disability act came in and the conversions had to be made in schools and public buildings for accessible toilets, changing beds, staff trained up to do personal care, ramps, there were grants made available to LAs from central government, the expectations of amount of provision and speed of it being in place were in line with the size of the setting, the number of people being served and their budget, all new build plans had to contain the specifics from the start. In about five years the provision was pretty standard.

Its very reasonable to legislate that all new build toilets, changing rooms etc, must include gender neutral provision as well as designated sex segregated provision (and from conversation here, the general consensus seems to be towards that gn provision being single contained floor to ceiling cubicles). There should be several designated trans prison units. Maybe a percentage of UK refuges could either be set up or maybe even existing ones asked (with financial incentive) to be the designated placements for gn/trans people/male dv victims alongside provision for women, with male/trans staff employed to support them, so women could choose to accept a vacant bed there if they were happy to but the massive majority of refuges would continue to focus on their core brief of women/children only. Everyone's safety and dignity matters.

The sticking point is that this would mean the government standing up for biological sex being a fact, and while trans people are welcomed into all spaces and equally provided for, no one is viewed as being able to change sex.

poster 53rdWay

The extremists on this thread, those who keep saying that trans women are men and shouldn't be allowed their legal right to use single gender space. Those who bring in dozens of side issues that have nothing to do with self ID, those who are actually bigoted and keep repeating transphobic tropes. Those who make misogynist comments. Why aren't you picking them up?

Not caught up but I am GOBSMACKED that there is a poster here saying women's toilets should let men in and it's irrelevant if women and girls for time immemorial have been using them to escape dodgy men because women and girls have for time immemorial been DOING IT WRONG.

I am genuinely aghast, just who the fuck exactly do you think you are?

And using a murdered woman's charity to back up your argument? Yes that's really pleasant.

I had a look at it quickly, and clicked on aggressive behaviour, It says this

"If you cannot de-escalate the situation:

Get away from the aggressor"

Like into the FUCKING LADIES as we have been doing forever.

I ask again, who the FUCK do you think you are to announce that teenage girls all over the UK are STUPID when it comes to their own safety????

Jesus wept. You have revealed yourself massively with that one.

I don't think Irish feminists should brag about how progressive Ireland is while your compatriots still have to fly to the UK to terminate a pregnancy.

I don't think that British 'feminists' should show their ignorance of the situation in Northern Ireland, where their fellow women are in a considerably worse situation than those in the Irish Republic and are still prosecuted for terminating their pregnancies.

That's on your watch and in your United Kindom.

The bottom line is, all of these arguments, disagreements, differences of opinions could be understood, addressed and resolved if women were allowed to talk about them and if we weren't silenced in favour of the Angry Shouty Men.

If everyone was heard and repsected, we could get on with the business with finding a solutions that the majority agreed with amd were content, even if not happy, with.

This whole thing is escalating because men don't like it when women say no.

,if you were doing that, you'd be pushing back against the extremists and you aren't.

Which extremists? The homophobic men who attack trans people? What would you like me to do about them? I’ve been “kicking back” against male violence, homophobia and misogyny all my adult life and I’ll continue to do so, but I’m not sure what evidence of this you are expecting to see in this kind of conversation?

TheGoldenBough

Don't take my word for it, why don't you pop into the police station, describe the outfit or take a few images from the Internet and ask if it's alright for the High Street.

But again: yes I have shared toilets with trans women, yes I was fine with it.

In an ironic echo of ManFriday, I've actually gone swimming many times with a trans person - they call themselves transsexual and despise the term transgender, I should emphasise - so that they could change in the women's. My pal didn't ask me to go along so that they would feel safe; they asked me to go along so that they wouldn't alarm any women, despite being years post-op.

This is something StillScreaming will never understand, in their quest to override women's consent and boundaries with no regard for the slippery slope that it is.

Oh no, SS. I just don't accept that, I'm afraid. You're on our side. I refuse to acknowledge that you object to it. Majority rules, and I bet most posters on this thread will be happy to accommodate you next to us - if you're uncomfortable with sharing with us nasty TERFs then I'm sorry, but you'll just have to accept it. Life's nicer when you just agree.

I don't call you TERFS, you're not radical and you're not feminists. I don't want to to have a third space but I'm happy to accept your demands for one.

the naked lady latex body suit, would cover it

Do you know that for definite?

Tbh, naked lady latex body suits are just a bit horrific to look at and ridiculous. I'm not really interested in them.

You just seem awfully confident that existing laws will protect us...

You’re trying to fit it into a narrative of “see, you naive bigots, you’ve been peeing next to trans women all along and never even knew!”, but that’s not the case. Do you think we’re maybe responding to something that’s changed, here?

No I don't becasue, I think,if you were doing that, you'd be pushing back against the extremists and you aren't.

I think that some of the anti self id narrative is alarmist but I don't think it's bigoted. However, I don't see those who go along with it kicking back against the bigots or those who are abusive. They don't even kick back against the misogyny. That makes me suspicious of their motives.

@stillscreaming

Maria Miller's plans are at publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39007.htm#_idTextAnchor252

Why demographics matter:

1. When I was in Ireland (several times) I noted that, outside Dublin and especially in small rural settlements, people were overtly religious and socially-conservative, considerably more so than in comparably-sized settlements here. This is likely to discourage transition unless the trans person moves to Dublin.
2. When the only public loo at the filling station is a single, accessible toilet, no one cares what sex or gender the other people using the loo are.

I don't think Irish feminists should brag about how progressive Ireland is while your compatriots still have to fly to the UK to terminate a pregnancy. Until they don't, I'll keep funding them to do so, no matter what their gender id.

As you can see from all the tropes that rowdywoman1 dragged in

JFC. Consent (of teenage girls, no less) is now a synonym for trope. You've said some bloody misogynistic things hereabouts, StillScreaming, but that one takes the cake. And the bloody cake shop.

@TheGoldenBough

One doesn't have to actually be naked to outrage public decency, the naked lady latex body suit, would cover it. There is no fear of seeing anyone dressed like that in Tesco, and the police not bring able to arrest and charge.

The naked lady latex body suite is already well covered under UK law.

Outraging public decency (OPD) At common law it is an offence to do in public any act of a lewd, obscene or disgusting nature which outrages public decency. Although this may be widely interpreted, most cases will involve indecent exposure of the human body.

The issue is that a man cannot become a woman not whether they use a toilet or not.

No, we're really not cool. As you can see from all the tropes that rowdywoman1 dragged in, this has nothing to do with self id. Self id is a side issue.

Oh no, SS. I just don't accept that, I'm afraid. You're on our side. I refuse to acknowledge that you object to it. Majority rules, and I bet most posters on this thread will be happy to accommodate you next to us - if you're uncomfortable with sharing with us nasty TERFs then I'm sorry, but you'll just have to accept it. Life's nicer when you just agree.

I suppose it could have been a trans man, going along with your sex segregation wishes?

I wouldn’t know. I don’t tend to ask anyone in the toilets about their gender identities.

But again: yes I have shared toilets with trans women, yes I was fine with it. Many of us have done this, have supported them in their push for rights, were happy about the GRA going through.

What do you think has changed? Why do you think so many feminist women like me are now not cheering on self-ID? You’re trying to fit it into a narrative of “see, you naive bigots, you’ve been peeing next to trans women all along and never even knew!”, but that’s not the case. Do you think we’re maybe responding to something that’s changed, here?