Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

If I think transwomen are women and not men then I'm afraid the inescapable logic trap you have set for me rather collapses.

Not really. You might also believe the moon is made of green cheese for all we know.

@TheDukesOfHazzard I’m talking to the autogynephilia scaremongers. And if the women who feel threatened are sincere they must know how dehumanising the "I believe that you believe in your delusion, dear" treatment is. I would hope they would hesitate to inflict it on anyone else.

@Ereshkigal
What do you think is a good reason why men are women?
If I think transwomen are women and not men then I'm afraid the inescapable logic trap you have set for me rather collapses.

.

And I’m out, because my sedatives give me horrible anxiety hangovers so I try to avoid having to use them.

It's complete news to me that we have self-ID in Ireland ??

I've never once encountered a transwoman in a female toilets or changing rooms.

Where are all these transwomen? I've never seen one.

@rowdywoman1 I remember the girls at my secondary school all refused to use the open showers, preferring to smell all day instead. Many of us deliberately slacked during PE to minimise sweating, which of course meant we didn't get the maximum fitness benefit from the lessons.

I was sexually assaulted in mixed changing rooms at primary school and it was a major contributor to my insistence on attending an all-girl secondary school. Had a trans girl (i.e. a biologically-male child) attended my school and I been required to change with her to do PE, I would have refused to do PE and no amount of detention would have persuaded me otherwise. Being forced to strip to my underwear in front of a biological male, having carefully orchestrated my school choice to avoid male children completely, would have been unbearable.

Who are you talking to, spoonless?

What do you think is a good reason why men are women?

Good for you.

I just hope that the people relying on some experts about autogynephilia are not the same people condemning other experts for saying that transwomen are women, at least not without a very good reason. And I don't think "BECAUSE OVARIES!!!!" is that reason.

Ha ha indeed. It was via an article or blog post written by a lesbian feminist that I first heard of the concept and there are many lesbian feminists on twitter and here with strong, and justified, objections to the concept.

I think she is saying that feminists who are gender critical (and who are rarely lesbians themselves hahahahahahahhahahahaha what?) mentioning lesbians and cotton ceiling as to support their arguments is homophobic as they are using lesbians for their own means.

So like when feminists get angry about people who only seem to care about CSA when it's a certain type of perp, really they are not interested in victims of CSA they are using them as an arugment to support their racism.

I think.

The idea that gender critical feminists are not usually lesbians is hahahahahahahaahahhahahahahhahahhaha awesome

I can't really parse this. Are you saying that you agree the cotton ceiling concept is homophobic, or that you have a bigger issue with those pushing back against it (primarily those affected by it i.e. lesbians) than you do with the concept itself?

She's saying radfems (none of whom are lesbians of course, sigh) only care about lesbians when they get to complain about the cotton ceiling. Therefore, radfems are homophobic.

It's more Through The Looking Glass bullcrap, of course.

The cotton ceiling thing is disturbing and homophobic, I and many of the lesbians I know are really pissed of that the only time we get mentioned by this subset of 'feminists' is to use us as a battering ram for trans people, it feels really homophobic to us.

I can't really parse this. Are you saying that you agree the cotton ceiling concept is homophobic, or that you have a bigger issue with those pushing back against it (primarily those affected by it i.e. lesbians) than you do with the concept itself?

spoonless: "Just so we're clear, transgenderism is a poorly understood and scantily objectively substantiated phenomenon so it doesn't exist and psychiatrists who believe in it cannot be trusted, but autogynephilia-masquerading-as-transgenderism, which is a poorly understood and extremely scantily objectively substantiated phenomenon, does exist and psychiatrists who believe in it must be trustworthy ?"

That's not what I said, and not what I believe. I think there are a small minority of people who genuinely believe that they are "really" the opposite sex. I have every sympathy for them.

I think the current wave of transactivism isn't about those people, though. You can see that from the amount of hatred they spout against women, and from things like the insistence that lesbians should be happy to have sex with them, which isn't rational, and which can only come from a pretty deeprooted misogyny.

So, pretty minimal research required

lol @ the idea that this is all made up!?

As pointed out by more than one poster, no one is denying the existence of gender (sex) dysphoria.

*isnt

Ireland doesn't have the trans women you describe but neither does the UK.

Yes it does, they are discussed here in a regular basis. Plenty of people out there on both sides of the issue who are public in terms of their names and opinions. I've no doubt there's plenty of anons but equally there are those willing to put their money where their mouth is so to speak.

Most of that stuff, I'd ask you to do your own research around. With the normal proviso about being careful about your sources

I have and I am, although it was Mumsnet that first caused me to become aware of the issues. I'd appreciate a more detailed reasoning for why I shouldn't be concerned about these issues, given that it seems apparent that including transgender individuals in the crime statistics for the gender they identify causes some anomalies to result and changes to the usual crime patterns and profiles for e.g.

I don't think these women are claiming to be censored, they actually are. I've been following events in the U.K. and what else would you call lobbying for events to be cancelled/people to be no platformed/accusations of transphobia against those willing to raise concerns? I myself would be considered a transphobe for the paragraph in which I outlined my areas of concern but I think those are issues worthy of discussion and debate. That apparently is allowed however as it is 'violence' to even raise such concerns.

You don't think cross dressing is a thing?

"I'm more concerned about crime statistics, prison segregation, womens refuges, sports participation, scholarships, political participation and the ability of women to meet as a group to discuss issues concerning our female biology without accusations of transphobia. I also find the discourse around the supposed 'cotton ceiling' disturbing and homophobic but I accept I'm not directly affected by that.

Most of that stuff, I'd ask you to do your own research around."

• Or, simply read the newspapers and look at the statistics, is not tricky.

@Ereshkigal. My mistake. Please substitute "transsexuality" for "transgenderism".

2 things:
Everything under the sun can be experienced as a paraphilia, and the DSM tells you more about the minds of psychiatrists than it does about their patients. So I'd say you're picking and choosing.

You are saying that feminists saying that cotton ceiling is awful is homophobic, is that right?

trains should be crucified

Prove it. And for lawd's sake, please learn to spell.

I've gone looking for the TRAs and I can't find a group bigger than MN fem chat

Didn't look very hard then, did you? Did all our institutions advertising their new, TRA-approved policies pass you by?

Flounce didn't last long, did it?

"The cotton ceiling thing is disturbing and homophobic, I and many of the lesbians I know are really pissed of that the only time we get mentioned by this subset of 'feminists' is to use us as a battering ram for trans people, it feels really homophobic to us."

Why do you assume that the women / feminists who talk about cotton ceiling are not, in the main, lesbians?

Most lesbian feminists I know are really fucking angry about the rapey subtext of what some of the TRAs come out with.

"trains should be crucified"

1. Citation
2. Trains? lol

"I've come back to thin because it's interesting a DM you don't seem to be foaming at the mouth. "

? - ??

Can you retype more slowly please I genuinely have no idea what that means. Who or what is DM? thin?