Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

The requirement in law that women must share men's delusional gender beliefs must be repudiated as vigorously as we have repudiated men's assertions throughout history that women are failed men, non-men, sub human animals.

I absolutely agree.

ThatEscalatedQuickly You’re right.
Imagine actual lesbians or bi women speaking for themselves.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I got the impression that stillscreaming is a male who identifies as a Lesbian.

This is a really clear and concise summary of women in prison in the UK

I searched for it to try to confirm my recollection of how women are managed in the prison estate, but the facts and figures in it are worth reading and pondering in and of themselves. One figure that really jumped out at me was the rate of attempted suicide of women in prison: at 46% it is more than double the rate of attempted suicide of men in prison, but very close to the number thrown around by TRAs in relation to trans kids.

Anyway, the prison estate for women is summarised as "Women are held in 12 prisons in England. There are no women’s prisons in Wales. There is currently one women’s prison in Scotland, with some women held in units within men’s prisons. In Northern Ireland women are held in a unit within a male Young Offenders Institution."

CircleSquare Only Stillscreaming can speak for lesbians...... apparently there are none out there with a different viewpoint to her, just straight rad fems appropriating their experiences for their own ends

I am recalcitrant by nature and refuse to lie for anyone.
The requirement in law that women must share men's delusional gender beliefs must be repudiated as vigorously as we have repudiated men's assertions throughout history that women are failed men, non-men, sub human animals.

Clear messages about accepting difference while respecting boundaries and absolute clarity about the right to consent.

Exactly.

How many women (old fashioned cunty sort) are currently held in the male estate under these rules? I must admit I don't have the stats to hand but I'm willing to bet it's somewhere between 'none' and 'one or two'.

My understanding is that there are so few exceptionally dangerous female prisoners that neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland have facilities to house them in their female estates. So they are accommodated in special areas (sex segregated) of the male estate.

So yes, a few. But not for reasons palatable to the TRA lobby!

Stillscreaming - I don't want to to have a third space but I'm happy to accept your demands for one.

Isn't it up to trans people to decide whether a third space is acceptable?

This is a personal question and you don't have to answer, but are you trans? The only reason I'm asking is that it would provide useful context for your posts and what your motivation might be.

You're putting a lot of time and energy into these threads considering that you're not bothered about self-ID and you're sure we are a fringe group destined to failure.

I also believe that boys generally feel the same. This really shouldn't be a debating point
Quite. I have a primary aged son (9). I was listening to the interview on the radio with Lucy Masoud and Jane Fae about all women short lists a couple of weeks ago. He asked me what it was about. I tried to explain and came around to some boys feel like they should be girls and some girls feel like they should be boys and that some women say that's fine, but they can't really be the opposite.

I said I think I agree with the women.

I gave the example that one of the girls in his class might feel like she should be a boy (I used a random name of one of his class mates). That's fine isn't it, I said, we should all be whoever we feel like we are? He agreed. And if she wanted to wear the boys uniform? Fine, he agreed. What about getting changed with you and the other boys for swimming? The look of horror on his face was priceless!

Kids understand these things. They know where the boundaries are.

Gosh @Stillscreaming has been busy!

Ireland is pretty similar to the UK in allocating prison places on a case by case basis.

No, come on we've done this on two other threads already.

Some TRAs are making a huge deal out of the prison rules that say a female prisoner can be held in the male estate if she is exceptionally dangerous. Prison instructions for trans prisoners can be downloaded here - scroll down to '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders'.

The prison service go by legal sex, first and foremost. They're not allowed to ask to see a GRC but they can ask for a birth certificate (the sole remaining thing a GRC is good for). If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they will be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are. They will still be housed separately from men and will be accommodated in line with PSI for female prisoners. TW prisoners with a GRC are treated as female in all circumstances.

There is case law directly referenced in the prison rules linked above that says that even if a tw is in prison for attempted rape, if they have a grc and hence a bc that says 'female', they must be sent to a women's prison. The bar is very low as we have seen in various cases that have made mainstream media.

How many women (old fashioned cunty sort) are currently held in the male estate under these rules? I must admit I don't have the stats to hand but I'm willing to bet it's somewhere between 'none' and 'one or two'.

Maybe it's more, in which case any TW housed under these rules will still be in with women. Extremely dangerous women maybe, but still in all likelihood smaller and less strong than the extremely dangerous TW. Still likely to be vulnerable to pregnancy as well.

What evidence do you have that Maria Miller would change the current policy in relation to prisons?

None at all.

Prison service: We go by legal sex. Trans people without a GRC will be dealt with case by case but a TW with a GRC must be treated the same as any other legally female prisoner.

Maria Miller: We're going to give out GRCs to anyone who wants one.

And believe me I've scrutinised all of this more thoroughly than most people.

Any chance of you acknowledging that cross dressing fetishists exist?

Think you're the arfer. Sea lion.

Uh, yes, that was my point. And there it is on cue.

Just convince me you've scrutinised the concept of autogynephilia as intently as you've scrutinised the concept of transwomen. Till you do I'll shut up.

I can't really parse this. Are you saying that you agree the cotton ceiling concept is homophobic, or that you have a bigger issue with those pushing back against it (primarily those affected by it i.e. lesbians) than you do with the concept itself?

It reads to me a little like when she bollocked Brits for not helping Irish women.
But now non-Lesbians aren’t allowed to advocated for Lesbians?

I just thought, if the 3rd space was for anyone who has an issue with sharing with men imagine how many TRAs would turn up photographing everyone who went and screaming “why aren’t you in with the women? TERF!”

1. Here is the link to the petition for anyone who hasn’t signed or shared petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

1. I don’t think the TRAs would ever accept a 3rd loo. It will be “the hill they die on” as the kids are so fond of saying these days.

1. StillScreaming, I know you’ll say “I never said I did” but you do not speak for all Irish women.

1. “Transwomen are not women” is not extremist. Unless you’d like the name of my higher education establishment whereby you can go and correct every person I trained with and all those who have graduated in the following 12 years, who I know for a fact were taught the same thing.

1. There was a poster who was heavily involved with posting during Brexit and the 2016 US election who was suspected of whilst not being a troll, perhaps being a bot/an account run by multiple people.

Think you could do with interrogating that belief you have if you're so into reason and logic, spoonless. And yes, cross dressers are a thing. No scaremongering. So if you can't refute that to prop up your beliefs, you're right to avoid the argument.

Think you're the arfer. Sea lion. Give one good reason why trans identified males are women, other than they say so.

Not really. You might also believe the moon is made of green cheese for all we know.

I’m talking purely as a logic formulation. It would be switching my "What do you think is a good reason why women are women?" to Ereshkigal's "What do you think is a good reason why men are women?" It's pretty clear we would be disagreeing over the definition of terms and we couldn't start formulating meaningful questions until that had been resolved. Which as I say I'm not able to stick around to do, so you won't get to start arfing at me.

How many beardy, gender fluids have you bumped into in the loo?

It's complete news to me that we have self-ID in Ireland ?? I've never once encountered a transwoman in a female toilets or changing rooms. Where are all these transwomen? I've never seen one.

We have had since 2015, I doubt you are the only one who hasn't realised. In fact I'd say it's a significant majority!

You probably have met a transperson and just not realised. That said, the numbers identifying as transgender are very small so I suppose you might not have met someone as yet.