Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

That is what they did at Evergreen State College when the trans identified male showed up to expose himself to the girls swim team. In the name of equal rights they let the male control the space and sent the girls who did not want to strip in front of him, all of them, to a closet.

You realise if that did come to pass, it wouldn't be just a small group of women opting to use the 'exclusionist' female-only space - it would be the vast majority of women and girls? And that men who claim to 'feel like' women would then disavow the unisex 'woman gender identity' space and demand entry into the 'exclusionist' female one?

Hilariously true!
It would also have TRAs outside screaming slurs.

If there is to be a third space, at the insistence of a small group of exclusionists, they should be the ones who get to use it.

This is kind of amusing. What you are proposing is that there be two unisex spaces divided by self-proclaimed 'gender identity', plus a third, female-only space for 'exclusionists'. You realise if that did come to pass, it wouldn't be just a small group of women opting to use the 'exclusionist' female-only space - it would be the vast majority of women and girls? And that men who claim to 'feel like' women would then disavow the unisex 'woman gender identity' space and demand entry into the 'exclusionist' female one?

Its also notable to me, SS, that you picked out the first part of my post to respond to, but not the secind half about logical arguments you’d failed to respond to...

What research has been done?

Well, there was the one following Target in the US after it changed its toilets to gender neutral.

Sexual incidents increased across the entire timeframe, with 44 incidents in the four pre-policy trimesters (Jan ’15-Apr ’16), and 80 in the four post-policy trimesters (May ’16-Aug ’17).

I'm pretty hot on all kinds of bullying. I don't like to be a bystander, it makes one complicit.

The threads on Mumsnet are generally pretty fast moving and it's hard to keep up with every single post. Not calling out another poster doesn't mean one is complicit in what they have posted. If you really feel attacked then report the posts to Mumsnet who will address the situation for you.

You can always opt to ignore the posts you feel are attacking your gender etc and concentrate on the substance of the discussion. I, for one, would like to understand your views on the questions raised earlier in the thread, including mine at 22.39, but if you don't wish to engage that is of course your prerogative.

Am I not allowed to feel comfortable in hitherto single sex spaces? Am I not allowed to retain a shred of dignity when lying on an examination couch with my legs in stirrups and a HCP wielding a large speculum? Is my elderly granny not allowed to retain a bit of modesty when getting her incontinence pads changed by the visiting nurse?

Why is it good enough for us to accept "you probably won't get assaulted" as a rationale?

If transsexual women decided, collectively, that they wanted a third space, that would be none of my business.

Jolly good.

Ach, I reported you SS. Never done it before personally but there’s always a first time.

Anyway, back to my original point which you side-stepped so cleverly with a personal insult:

I said I don’t care (or care to know) what sex or gender you are.

But that you obfuscate.

You said you have to defend yourself against personal attacks, that’s why you go in circles and respond as you do.

I said I hadn’t insulted you so that argument didn’t really work in response to my posts to you.

You said I’d watched people misgender you so I was an enabler.

But I neither know nor care what sex or gender you are. So I can’t very well call anyone out or defend you on something I know nothing about.

(This is where you tell me I know nothing about how trans people feel, so why am I getting involved in their business , and I tell you it’s women’s business I’m involved with and on and on..,)

There is no need for it, there has been no research to show that sharing space with trans women is dangerous in the countries that do have self id

What research has been done?

So anyway I thought this article was hilariously timed, coming straight after Hadley Freeman's article asking the lefty dude-bros to back the fuck off.

Lefty dude-bro wades straight in and suggests something utterly naive Who hasn't, when entering this debate for the first time, thought, 'hey I know, we could just have third spaces!'

It's still a positive article and miles away from where the guardian was at a year or so ago. The tide is turning.

No, you're one of the trans people who is happy to sit by and watch others doing the personal insults, mis gendering by calling us cis and name calling feminists who disagree 'terfs''. You're the enabler who looks the other way.

I don't sit by and allow the term 'TERF' to be used around me, I also pick people up on cis, although it's not offensive to everyone.

I'm pretty hot on all kinds of bullying. I don't like to be a bystander, it makes one complicit.

Why don't you, as a woman, want third spaces? What if transsexual TW decided as a group that actually third spaces were the way to go? Would that negatively affect you?

If transsexual women decided, collectively, that they wanted a third space, that would be none of my business. When a tiny group of exclusionists decide to push trans women out of the space we share, that's my business.

To see any minority group oppressed has a negative effect on all of us.

If there is to be a third space, at the insistence of a small group of exclusionists, they should be the ones who get to use it. There is no need for it, there has been no research to show that sharing space with trans women is dangerous in the countries that do have self id, so this is a comfort issue not a safety one.

I see that you don't take too well to facts or owning your shit.
This from you is pure delight!

Just to be totally clear, I'm only responsible for what I post here, just as you are responsible for what you post. Accusations of enabling are ridiculous.

No, you're one of the trans people who is happy to sit by and watch others doing the personal insults, mis gendering by calling us cis and name calling feminists who disagree 'terfs''. You're the enabler who looks the other way.

Would you accept the same argument if I had presented as above. No you wouldn't and you know it, you'd be jumping up and down to accuse a poster who posted what you did, just in a different context, of extreme transphobia.

Just because you post on the same thread does not mean you are responsible for what others post or that you are giving tacit agreement or 'enabling' what they say.

I've been engaging all day and now I'm calling you out on your enabling behaviour.

The reason it's important is because you wrote 'I don't want third spaces'.

It's hard to work out whether you don't want them because you are male and don't want to use third spaces yourself, or because you are female and ... I dunno

Why don't you, as a woman, want third spaces? What if transsexual TW decided as a group that actually third spaces were the way to go? Would that negatively affect you?

No, you're one of the posters who is happy to sit by and watch others doing the personal insults, mis gendering and name calling. You're the enabler who looks the other way.

Just because you post on the same thread does not mean you are responsible for what others post or that you are giving tacit agreement or 'enabling' what they say.

Why won't you engage with the substance of any of the discussions/questions?

I reported your ad hominum logical fallacy, SS.
Just so you know I always advise when I report, so it seems I am not the only one who objects to your verbal abuse.

Still throwing it 🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐠🐠🐠🐠🐠🐠?