Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

Someone asked about the responses on Twitter, here are a couple from someone who calls themselves Martha:

How fucking dare the Guardian publish a steady stream of this sort of transphobic shit. How fucking dare they. The idea anybody can fail to see them for the fascist apologists they are baffles me. First Hadley “I am a terf” Freedman, now this cunt. Jesus fuck.

Cis people still think -as all oppressors do, always- that they know better then those poor silly trans folks who aught to just shut up about their problems.

I'm not the only one thinking this reads like a classic example of narcissistic injury, right?

You are not.

We have a few postmodernists/social constructionists around here and anyone who reads my posts will know that particular ideology is like a red rag to a bull to me. I can't stand it and I think it reinforces existing power relations to the detriment of all actually marginalised people (ie not white middle class males who like to present feminine).

Followers of this ideology can often keep going with the word salads on threads for exceptional lengths of time. But they don't usually lose the plot like this, even when challenged.

italiangreyhound - I've seen you post a couple of times about ROGD recently and can see this is what you want to know more about/understand better. Just in case you haven't seen it yet, Bailey and Blanchard include a large section on ROGD in one of their articles for 4th Wave Now:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

I'm not the only one thinking this reads like a classic example of narcissistic injury, right?

Nope that was exactly what I thought when I read that last night.

That's a lie. You tell that lie. You're a liar. Then you run off to MNHQ and moan that you're being called a liar when you're lying. It is in your nature to lie. You are not a honest women. You don't deal in the truth. You are a spreader of false rumours. Your radically interprete facts. You might not even know the truth if it hit you in the face like a wet fish. You fell out of the honestly tree and missed every branch on the way down. If you were able to present your lies without spitting while you are doing it, you could be a politician.

I'm not the only one thinking this reads like a classic example of narcissistic injury, right?

An example of a woman I'm not "comfortable" with would be Katie Hopkins, not Jane Fae. I'm fine sharing women's spaces with Katie, because Katie is a woman. Jane otoh is a man and I don't want to change with him at the swimming pool.

You may think there are more women who agree with you than with me, StillScreaming, but I suspect that's because most women know better than to be honest with you.

There is one group who tweet inflammatory things at trans people and another group, who may or may not be trans, who tweet back equally inflammatory things. For every 'chest feeder', there is a 'real women have breast' and for every 'kill all TERFS' there is a 'trains should be crucified'.

Presumably you mean "trans", as I'm not sure how one would crucify a train. Nobody is trying to nail trans people to a cross, though some of them are awfully determined to climb up there and scream about how they're being murdered with pronouns no matter how often the rest of us suggest that they get down and remind them that it's winter and we need the wood to make pizza with.

Yes @bd67th I do see the similarities with Anorexia.

But he is not really trusting his customers, he is requiring his female customers to trust his male customers (if they identify as female) on his say so, based on....nothing but a feeling.

So in fact he is the voice of cloth eared patriarchy!

I have a hypothesis that "ROGD", with its clustering of cases and high proportion of female victims, is to modern teen girls what anorexia was to my generation when I was a teen: a way of trying to control a body that is growing breasts and hips and bleeding every month, a way of trying to stop becoming the target of harassment and sexual objectification.

Agreed, except that I would add that sexual objectification is much, much worse for teenage girls now. No previous generation of girls had to grow up in a culture saturated with ultra-misogynistic pornography, nor contend with constant scrutiny of their looks and behaviour via social media.

Yes, I acknowledged that three hours ago with "Everything under the sun can be experienced as a paraphilia."

Good spoonless, then we're clear, aren't we? Cross dressing fetishists exist and want access to women's spaces, so no one is "scaremongering".

I have to say thebewilderness has always come across as a very honest, straightforward poster to me.

Me too. Not given to obfuscation, much less lying.

@olennaswimple Yes, comfort and dignity are important.

Rape physically hurts the vagina and so a rape victim going for a coil fitting or smear test, or any other procedure involving a speculum, has to endure pain in the same place that her rapist hurt her. Some days, I can cope with a male medical professional inflicting that pain on me, other days I really really can't cope and I need a female that day otherwise I can't go ahead with the exam.

If women start being called "bigot" for refusing a trans woman nurse, or are told that they can't request that a nurse be a biological female, the most vulnerable womenrape victims, FGM victims, abuse victimswill stop attending smear tests and women will die.

@italiangreyhound I have a hypothesis that "ROGD", with its clustering of cases and high proportion of female victims, is to modern teen girls what anorexia was to my generation when I was a teen: a way of trying to control a body that is growing breasts and hips and bleeding every month, a way of trying to stop becoming the target of harassment and sexual objectification.

@italiangreyhound You've hit the nail on the head. Soames is requiring women travelling in sleeper accommodation to play russian roulette or else pay extra to get a solo compartment. Mind the gender pay gap and then pay a safety premium too! Males outnumber females 50:1 as sexual offenders and there is evidence that TIMs offend as often as non trans males. Making women share with TIMs puts women at risk, especially after the Met's recent statements about rape complainants and the fear of being branded a "transphobe" if we file a complaint.

Sorry, back on page one @rowdywoman1 you said

"Where does that position leave all the teenage girls transitioning - the main group growing in numbers?"

and "I am especially concerned about the targeting of schools and children and genuinely don't know whether those leading the charities are AGP or otherwise"

Sorry, I know things have moved on in the thread but I wanted to say, IMHO, I think the 'trans movement' is curiously very quiet on the issue of trans boys and their growing numbers.

What I have seen is articles questioning even the idea of 'Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria' (ROGD) and that feels very dismissive of a new new phenomenon and of reasons that could explain it.

It does seem as if ROGD does appear to affect females more than males, but I am willing to say I could be totally wrong. But my point is I don't think the trans community has any real concern for these young girls expressing themsevles as boys. Since they seem to conflate all 'trans' as the same.

rowdy - I know. The thread suddenly moved very fast!

My point about comfort and dignity was in response to Still's post saying that there was no argument on safety grounds to sharing single sex spaces with TW, only comfort. Personally, I think comfort / dignity / decency are worth fighting for - we know what happens when people lose those things

Yes, that is what I meant but I was on my phone and it's full of typos!

But he is not really trusting his customers, he is requiring his female customers to trust his male customers (if they identify as female) on his say so, based on....nothing but a feeling.

That's what I meant.

He is directly asking women to trust men. We have no basis for trusting strange men, none whatsoever.

I've not read all comments so this has probably been said but...

"With a single word – “sigh” – Soames ensured that he would be cast in this controversy as the voice of cloth-eared patriarchy. As it happens, he is no such thing. In the best sense of the word, he is a liberal who, faced with an ethical conundrum, decided to err on the side of trust of his customers"

But he is not really trusting his customers, he is requiring his female customers to trust his make customers on his say so, based on....nothinh but s feeling.

When did feelings replace reality.... Oh wait.

In this thread, in my opinion, SS gave us a mini class in DARVO.

@pencilsinspace

"Prison service: We go by legal sex. Trans people without a GRC will be dealt with case by case but a TW with a GRC must be treated the same as any other legally female prisoner.

Maria Miller: We're going to give out GRCs to anyone who wants one."

Result: any male prisoner who wants to be housed in women's prisons applies for, and gets, a GRC. No safeguards, no GD diagnosis required. And we're supposed to trust men who have broken the law at least once, in some cases by raping women, not to misuse this? Pull the other leg, it has bells on.

That is very kind of you to say, PencilsInSpace.
I am wrong from time to time, as are we all, but I like to think I correct myself when I am made aware of it.

I have to say thebewilderness has always come across as a very honest, straightforward poster to me.

@stillscreaming you don't speak for Irish women, most of whom are totally unaware of the GRA. And a small but well-placed group caused a lot of hurt and offence to our English sisters with their stupid offensive "Terfs out" letter, if that's not attempted censorship, what is?

Your word salad posting style and policing of who's a proper feminist is very familiar...is Twitter quiet today or something?