Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

just like British women do and have been doing for years.

yeah, and as a British woman I was totally fine with that until men with beards and “gender-fluid” men started claiming they too were genuinely women and needed to be in there as well. And that women who weren’t comfortable with this were bigots.

When men tuck patronising little terms of endearment on the end of their statements, to shut women down, we see it for the misogyny is it.

Believe me it isn't a term of endearment. It's a gesture of contempt I sometimes use for a rather silly person with poor arguments. I'm not a man, and I also do it to men. So no. I don't take instructions on how to post. Given that you go around calling women liars for stating facts you don't agree with, you haven't got much of a leg to stand on here.

Why is it not a fantastic plan? How did you deal with this when you were young / or how do you deal with it if you are young (18ish)?

The Suzy Lamplugh Trust offer great advice on personal safety. Generally, you're better off drawing attention to the behaviour than trying to hide.

www.suzylamplugh.org/Pages/FAQs/Category/personal-safety

I've also appreciated this, @stillscreaming

Consent is important but a fringe group can't expect to dictate to the majority.

Double phew. We can all go home now. A fringe group can't expect to dictate to the majority so it's all OK. Panic over.

You've lost me. Irish women do those things - yes ... and?

Irish women deal with heavy periods and breast milk overflow and manage to deal with them with trans women in the next cubical, just like British women do and have been doing for years.

there's nothing feminist about shutting the majority of women down becasue they don't agree with you

Entirely agree. So run along and tell your TRA pals that. While you're there, mention that the polling is 3:1 against self-ID.

It's good to see something like this in the guardian.

This bit though

"So: theatres will have to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable. Good: the new Bridge theatre in London is already trying this. "

Most theatres (in london anyway) are v old and have no space. There are massive queues for the ladies already. Not sure how this is going to work / where is the space / who will pay.

"At rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is."

Well they don't have to accept that, do they, and plenty of times they aren't.

I shall be chuckling about lesbians littering the political landscape all day

Best Freudian slip ever!

Oh and it's Analytica, dear.

When men tuck patronising little terms of endearment on the end of their statements, to shut women down, we see it for the misogyny is it.

I'm naming your misogyny. If you want to call yourself a feminist, you need to stop that.

@Stillscreaming

You've lost me. Irish women do those things - yes ... and?

What do I need to put more thought into?

Anyway, I am relieved to hear that

There's nothing radical about exclusion

because we can stop being worried about being called Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists then. Phew.

"To be honest, the 'escaping the attention of a man' one, doesn't strike me as a fantastic plan. I think you need to put a bit more thought into that one"

I've done this, more than once, and also have helped other girls who were hiding out from weirdos or persistent blokes.

Why is it not a fantastic plan? How did you deal with this when you were young / or how do you deal with it if you are young (18ish)?

You can't judge how many people think something by how many people sign an online petition asking for the government to run a public consultation. People don't actually think men are women, Stillscreaming. Radical feminism may be a fringe, but people who don't believe in biological reality is too. Give it up.

Hey, I thought what you wanted was debate? I thought you wanted an opportunity to talk? Why do you keep,trying to close me down?

There's nothing radical about exclusion and there's nothing feminist about shutting the majority of women down becasue they don't agree with you.

What evidence would that be? AGP is basically cross dressing fetishism by another name. Are you suggesting that's not a thing?

You can't prove that a significant number of trans people have AGP and I can't prove that none do. It's a rabbit hole of pointlessness even trying. Being trans isn't listed as a paraphernalia by the Royal College of Psychiatrists. I accept that they know more than I do but you think you know better.

Oh and it's Analytica, dear.

You can't judge how many people think something by how many people sign an online petition asking for the government to run a public consultation. People don't actually think men are women, Stillscreaming. Radical feminism may be a fringe, but people who don't believe in biological reality is too. Give it up.

Oh Stillscreaming, your response to me did make me laugh! And I needed that this morning, so thanks

I shall be chuckling about lesbians littering the political landscape all day

dealing with a heavy period
dealing with a daughter/friend with a heavy period
dealing with breastmilk leakage
to escape the attention of a man/men

Irish women do those things. We usually keep the door shut.

(To be honest, the 'escaping the attention of a man' one, doesn't strike me as a fantastic plan. I think you need to put a bit more thought into that one.)

Oh, I see StillScreaming is back, declaring that her consent is the only consent that matters and should count for all women. Newsflash: no, it shouldn't.

No, I'm looking at the numbers on the petition and I see, that, even with the help of Cambridge Analitical, you'd have a hard time getting it up to 100,000 signatures. I'm told that trans people make up 1% of the population and that 650,000 (ish) people.

Consent is important but a fringe group can't expect to dictate to the majority.

know that there are some websites of the internet that get all excited about AGP, so I'm going to humour you and pretend it exists, flying in the face of most of the evidence. Why is that a problem?

What evidence would that be? AGP is basically cross dressing fetishism by another name. Are you suggesting that's not a thing?

Why? Genuinely? Why would the trans women want to use the ladies female-only loos if a safe unisex environment was available to them?

Why wouldn't you?

SS: The trans women will be with the rest of us, in the ladies.

Me: Why? Genuinely? Why would the trans women want to use the ladies female-only loos if a safe unisex environment was available to them?

Just to expand on this a bit. I'd want to use the female-only loos when:

dealing with a heavy period
dealing with a daughter/friend with a heavy period
dealing with breastmilk leakage
to escape the attention of a man/men

Of my reasons, I guess trans women could also claim "escaping unwanted male attention" as a reason. But if most men are decent, and don't harrass people unduly (as we're told we're hysterical for this being a reason for sex-segregated loos) and most trans women just want to go about their business unnoticed and have been doing it for ages without anyone realising (so stop being hysterical about penises, women), then in that situation I suspect most women would accept a trans woman who was genuinely afraid into the female loo.

I realise I'm not doing well on the whole "not talking about toilets" thing.

Maybe someone who still subscribes to the Guardian could email Matthew D'Ancona and point him to this thread and that a third space would do nothing to meet TAs' demands for validation of their womanhood, bepenised or not, which is really what they want.

Oh, I see StillScreaming is back, declaring that her consent is the only consent that matters and should count for all women. Newsflash: no, it shouldn't.

And that feminism intersects with penis. Newsflash: no, it doesn't.

Nice bit of sanctimonious emotional blackmail included, I see - because, of course, displaying our female socialisation is exactly what feminism should be about. Newsflash: no, it shouldn't.

I really don't mean this in a bad way (I love Ireland!) but Ireland in many ways is about 20 years behind the UK in terms of social acceptance of behaviours outside the norm. So my take on self-ID there is that it is predominantly transsexuals who will go through the process, because Ireland has not - yet - seen the rise in out and obvious AGPs that are currently dominating the narrative in the UK