Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

Ah

Was it supposed to be 'bants' then?

Thats funny as well

thebewilderness and I obviously have the same sense of humour

If that was intended as a trial run for her upcoming comedy act I hope she has a good day job.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1
Unfortunately the meltdown did not have the comedic value that SS claims was intended, but it gave me a chuckle too.

You can first meet the burden of proof that trans identified males are women and thus should have access to women's sex segregated spaces in the first place. I'll wait, shall I?

This. Bearing in mind that unfalsifiability is not evidence of truth!

That's a lie. You tell that lie. You're a liar

Is this one of the recently deleted posts?...

Goodness that is funny

This does not describe thebewilderness at all

I know who it does describe though

Mermaids lies to the police and schools and this transgender identified male's advocacy organization lies to schools and the schools are the ones who will be sued for their failure of safekeeping. But it is the girl children who will suffer long term effects from the abusive adults telling them they are bigots if they say no to boys.

This is a lie though isn't it? Schools have a duty to provide single sex changing etc; children cannot have GRC.

It may well be a lie, but schools trust the information and are complying with it.

So are the Guides.

@LangCleg thank you. I mention ROGD because it appears to most closely fit what is happening to teenage girls.

But if you Google it, you get some trans people saying 'bad science'!

The idea that many, many teenage girls are suddenly describing themselves as boys and the reason is that they mysteriously are boys seems to me the very definition of 'bad science'.

So yes, I post to learn more

..... but also to give to parents who think the only option is to transition their physically healthy but potentially distressed teenage daughters something to read up on.

"One has a transgender advocacy organization that goes into schools and tells the students and instructors that it is illegal to deny boys who identify as girls access to the girls changing rooms. That the exceptions in the EA do not apply."

This is a lie though isn't it? Schools have a duty to provide single sex changing etc; children cannot have GRC.

if people are saying things like "current transactivism is an organised effort by sexual predators to invade women's spaces and gain access to potential victims", the burden of proof re AGP is firmly on them and they haven't met it.

You can first meet the burden of proof that trans identified males are women and thus should have access to women's sex segregated spaces in the first place. I'll wait, shall I?

spoonless - No, we're agreed up to "Cross dressing fetishists exist".

So if they exist, where have they all gone?

When the Beaumont Society stopped being a club for cross-dressing men and started being a transgender support org instead, do you think all the old members left?

Where rights compete, (and this is the first time it's happened in the Equality Act) it cannot be a case of one group having rights removed to benefit the other. The only answer is third spaces. The fact it's not a palatable way forward for one group still doesn't justify removing rights from the other group.

It's also time for a government consideration on what rights actually are. Human rights are specific. Legal rights are specific. To award a legal right to be entitled to resources for a protected group purely on the grounds of self ID provides a precedent for a minefield. Transchildren are already a thing. So is transdisabled. A line will have to be drawn sooner or later.

Quite thebewilderness

spoonless

It's not that AGP individuals are any more, or less, likely to predate on women in the traditional sense.

It's about fetishising womanhood and being aroused by women's unwitting participation. It's a display of male dominance that is unacceptable in women only spaces.

To understand what I'm talking about, take a look at this thread written by, and for, women who are married to transwomen. They are at the coalface of this issue.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

There are two police officers who identify as transgender. They give us an idea of where the GRA and EA are taking us.
One has a transgender advocacy organization that goes into schools and tells the students and instructors that it is illegal to deny boys who identify as girls access to the girls changing rooms. That the exceptions in the EA do not apply.
The other has come out as gender fluid and changes their pronouns with their change of garb. They expect everyone to respect and comply with their gender performance which is pretty obviously a male dominance display.
They are both abusing their authority.
I do not think that AGPs are sexual predators, but they are quite obviously abusive males. Testimony can be found in the trans widow thread or the blogs and forums where they talk about their experiences.
Men have pretended to be women in an effort to get away with criminal behavior for many years. So, while all AGPs are not predatory males neither are all predatory males AGPs.
It is unreasonable to argue that women must prove that all AGPs are predatory males to justify being concerned about predatory males behavior.

spoonless

Most women want segregated spaces when their knickers are round their ankles, they're undressing, having a smear, or have been raped. There are people born male disregarding this. You don't even have to go down the 'are they are predator' route.

Very fact that they are already refusing to accept those boundaries is a red flag. Which is quite sufficient for most women.

No, if it's an issue of competing rights you need to prove there's a compelling reason for the status quo to change and that it's not a danger to anyone. And you can't prove that because there isn't and it is.

I don't want an argument. I just believe that given that this is an issue of competing rights, if people are saying things like "current transactivism is an organised effort by sexual predators to invade women's spaces and gain access to potential victims", the burden of proof re AGP is firmly on them and they haven't met it.

For every 'chest feeder', there is a 'real women have breast' and for every 'kill all TERFS' there is a 'trains should be crucified'.

MRAs have been trying for years to convince people that 93% violent male perps is exactly equal to 7% violent female perps with their patented WDIT (women Do It Too) as well as NAMALT (NotAllMenAreLikeThat) and WATM (What About The Men) discussion derailment techniques.
It simply is not true that that women harass men the same way men harass women. Not even on the internet.

Whatever. If you want to have a good faith argument, state your case.

Good spoonless, then we're clear, aren't we? Cross dressing fetishists exist and want access to women's spaces, so no one is "scaremongering".

No, we're agreed up to "Cross dressing fetishists exist".

Like I said if both sides are criticising the paper they must be doing something right.

Well The Guardian dares because it is a newspaper.

Freedom of speech means freedom to be offended.

Everyone is having a go at The Guardian at the moment so they must be doing something right.

It was an awful post. Which is why I hope they leave it.

Is a demonstration of the manic ranting that women are subjected to over this issue.

I've reported SS's post, too. I know that a certain amount of personal abuse is tolerated on MN but the post I reported goes way beyond acceptable.