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Original poster

Writers and gender theory

63 replies

Emmags0309 · 02/04/2018 17:34

I’d be really grateful if anyone has who has read books by Judith Butler (feminist academic) can give their opinion of her books before I buy any of them.

I am frustrated by gender theory. I first learned about it on MN, then learned more by looking at the Mermaids, GIRES and Stonewall websites. From this, I realised I was ‘gender critical’. I’m a woman because of my body, but I can’t believe that I have a gender. Using society’s view of gender behaviour as a yardstick against which we assess our personality to decide whether we feel manly or womanly could be quite dangerous and I’m quite concerned that those promoting gender theory seem to be saying that having a gender is the norm.

My sister, an academic who has lectured gender theory said I was talking nonsense when I said that I don’t have a gender. I tried to explain that I don’t believe in gender, and it’s similar to being an atheist who doesn’t have a religion. She said that I do have a gender; my gender is female because I wear skirts and makeup. She said I shouldn’t be “getting my feminism from mumsnet” and I should read works by Judith Butler.

To quote a phrase I’ve learned from MN, I think she drank some Kool Aid, but if posters think Judith Butler might be worth reading I’ll order some of her books.

And surely, if a person is free to have a gender, a person is equally free to reject the concept of gender and say they don’t have one? Is it not socially acceptable to say this?

Thanks for any replies

OP posts:
NotTerfNorCis · 02/04/2018 18:03

It's important to resist the violence that is imposed by ideal gender norms

Okay, but does this mean if a woman doesn't conform to ideal gender norms she isn't a woman? Isn't that enforcing gender? Still Confused.

Original poster
Emmags0309 · 02/04/2018 17:59

Thanks for the replies. I’ll look for the Butler thread. It’s hard to discuss things in my family to be honest. I made my point about about agency and how I’m personally entitled to reject an unproven concept/philosophy and I got told “Well you haven’t even read Judith Butler. Now, let’s talk about something else”.

OP posts:
RunningWild12 · 02/04/2018 17:58

Emmags0309 I found this interview by Deep Green Resistance radio with Dr Susan Cox very useful when trying to understand the whole post modernist Judith Butler show. It’s long, but I found it interesting and clear.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=DWXHbrt3kvU
Rebecca Reilly Cooper is a philosopher who has written a lot on gender issues and again is thoughtful, and brings insight.
Much more useful than reading Butler, IMHO!

NotTerfNorCis · 02/04/2018 17:56

'Gender is performative.' 'The way we walk and talk consolidates an impression of being a man or a woman.' 'Nobody is a gender from the start.' 'Gender is culturally formed, but it's also a domain of agency or freedom. It's important to resist the violence that is imposed by ideal gender norms, especially against those who are non-confirming in their gender presentation.'

Confused
JoyTheUnicorn · 02/04/2018 17:53

I don’t wear skirts or makeup therefore I am a man?
Forget Judith Butler, your sister is an academic and believes this tosh?
I’d better tell my husband that he’s gay...

LangCleg · 02/04/2018 17:52

Do not spend any money! Here you go (and at least fortify yourself with a brandy or something before going in):

lauragonzalez.com/TC/BUTLER_gender_trouble.pdf

eng5010.pbworks.com/f/ButlerBodiesThatMatterEx.pdf

HairyBallTheorem · 02/04/2018 17:51

Found it - it wasn't buffy, it was LRDthefeministdragon who started it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a2171983-Would-anyone-like-to-talk-about-Judith-Butler-with-me

LangCleg · 02/04/2018 17:49

Reading Judith Butler is like wading through treacle, OP! I seriously wouldn't recommend it! It's endless word salad basically saying nothing is real and everything is performance. That's it. The end.

Original poster
Emmags0309 · 02/04/2018 17:49

Yes. The skirts and makeup thing made me say “what?” too. Apparently Butler will explain why wearing skirts and makeup (my behaviour) will determine my gender as female. I’m beginning to think that I won’t agree with her, but if anyone can convince me to read it ...

OP posts:
ThatEscalatedQuickly · 02/04/2018 17:48

All you really have to do is tell your sister that gender is unmeasurable nonsense based only on 'feelings' or stereotypes and you don't accept you have a gender, you have a sex, which is female.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 02/04/2018 17:46

My gender is female because I wear skirts and makeup.

This is why gender is such bollocks. I wear skirts and makeup some days, jeans, a tshirt and a bare face others. Am I gender fluid? What a load of cobblers.

If you'd like to do a bit more reading OP do, if only so you know who you agree with and you feel a bit more informed when arguing with others. For someone who has supposedly lectured on 'gender theory', however, your sister's analysis seems very shallow and if you had a bit more confidence in your arguments I'm sure you could knock hers out of the water.

HairyBallTheorem · 02/04/2018 17:45

Somewhere back in the day, BuffyTheReasonableFeminist (great poster, sadly no longer around AFAIK) started a reading group thread about Butler - might be worth ferreting around in advanced search to see if you can find it. I gather from Buffy's struggles (she was an academic so used to reading this sort of stuff) that Butler is not an easy read though!

NotTerfNorCis · 02/04/2018 17:37

Can't help with Judith Butler I'm afraid but:

my gender is female because I wear skirts and makeup

Wut? I hardly ever wear skirts and makeup. Am I male?