Self ID in other countries

I started a similar thread here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3189795-Issues-with-gender-self-ID-in-other-countries

Someone posted this link which was maybe the sort of thing you are looking for?
nounequalrights.com/information/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/The-Threat-to-Women-and-Girls-Illustrated-1.pdf

There seems to be a significant variation around the world as to the level of misogyny in different societies, which I think plays into this discussion

www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Rapes-per-million-people
This is the reported rates of rape in various countries

The uk is not in the list but using the figures from ONS England and Wales would be 7th in the list, ahead of Canada-95, Ireland -37 and Argentina-49. No ranking for malta

If I have time I will also try and get a handle on the underreporting rates to see if if significantly changes the order . South Africa , number 1 , estimates 17% are reported, the uk 34%. ( for rape, lower for all sexual violence)

This thread Cis

Also anyone can test it: go on Twitter and ask Stonewall, or LibDem LGBT, or Greens LBGT, or Labour, or any transactivist, if exclusive same sex attraction is right or wrong. You will get tumbleweed.

This is by transexual Miranda Yardley who we all know and love

Gender trendier explanation also very good

Worth noting that one European lesbian group has divorced itself from the GBT entirely, for this reason.

I could post scores of examples but I won't as I don't think it's MN etiquette. A search for cotton ceiling or #cottonceiling will uncover the details. Also I will link an article.

CisMyArse: there is an enormous volume of this kind of material directed at young gay people but mainly lesbians across social media. It's transactivists bullying and shaming lesbians into accepting penis. They insist that exclusive single sex attraction is transphobic, thus morally unacceptable.

nationalpost.com/news/canada/federal-transgender-inmates-to-be-housed-addressed-according-to-gender-identity the comments on here are interesting to read

@CharlieParley thanks for that! I don’t want to be banned. It does seem that if the original author can use “assigned” because it was used in the 60s that they could equally use another. But I shan’t be doing anything to get me banned for “transphobic” vandalism.

@AmygdalaeOnFire I would advise against going into the page and editing it. Yes, the phrase "assigned at birth" is now political but was actually used frequently in the 60s together with "discerned" "observed" and "recognised". The problem only arises because certain lobby groups have expanded the correct usage of this word from medicine where it exclusively refered to intersex people and appropriated it for themselves and now use it for all births.

Editing this out without evidence proving that the medical literature predominantly uses "oberved at birth" (which it doesn't precisely because this issue is most often discussed only in relation to intersex or transgender people) will swiftly lead to a reverse edit and possibly even a ban for vandalism for the editor.

So it is necessary to prove increased problems for women before anybody will try to find solutions to trans-people problems that are not just shoe-horning them into the category of women? Yet the very processes of the law make it almost impossible to identify when the trans laws may have been abused?

If we go the route of never distinguishing between women and trans, we will never be able to see if e.g. the rate of violent attacks is much greater against trans than women. This would maker difficult to put the correct protections and changes in place.

How would we prove that trans suicide rates really do go down if they are categorised as women, there may be other problems that need sorting out.

However, if that is what they want, then the question becomes..would this impact on women's safety, either directly ( bad transpeople) or indirectly ( bad men abusing the law, increased misogyny in society )

Clearly for the 1 in 5,women who have been subjected to serious sexual violence, it is usual that they have psychological hangovers that mean they can be traumatised by male sights, sounds and smells . Now we have to learn to live with men, but as a women, I would say that the trauma is more likely to be felt when we are in isolated areas, getting undressed, or had a recent crime committed against us. I don't think this needs proving surely!

Clearly transwomen may have similar feelings when exposed to men e.g. In changing areas, so I would expect them of all people to totally understand this, and therefore accept that an alternative solution is needed.

Focus now on Canada, because I think that is closest to us, and I know that Irish law does still allow to distinguish sex from gender

before the law change, a one off indication that people did try to abuse the self ID principal
www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault

Note that there are other one off examples, such as the uk women's prison where an apparent transgender person raped many of the inmates. Making it easier to present as trans would increase the probability of this happening.

The question here is how much does it increase the probability of such abuse and how does that trade with the problems that trans people can face, such as the probability that they are raped in a male Prison? The answer to me is that a trade is wrong…we need a solution that protects both groups of people . Note that Canada has only just started o put trans women into women's prisons so there is no data there

After the law has changed in Canada people on here are saying that it is difficult for the press to report this accurately, this is evidence that there is still tension
torontosun.com/2017/06/13/toronto-spa-takes-heat-for-stance-on-transgender-women/wcm/9ac8eba7-e2a8-40e3-8604-20381aef7cdc

There is also evidence that Canadian boundaries are being drawn via legal process. Note this started way before the law change but concluded after the law change
www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/learn/news/transexual-loses-fight-womens-shelter

Whilst it is too soon to make cause and effect judgements on the data, if we are forced, it is clear that the crime stats from Canada are not consistent with society's becoming safer for women in recent years but the data is NOT inconsistent with society becoming more dangerous for women. I really hope that we do not need to see a significant increase in sexual violence against women before we are taken seriously. Also reference the target Study about voyerism in changing rooms ?

I went looking for France to see their rules then came upon this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights

(If that doesn't link I'll post again).

All the countries, but the top talks about "sex assigned at birth". I've never edited Wiki things. How easy is it, because that needs to change!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.christianpost.com/amp/sexual-violence-reports-target-stores-spike-transgender-bathroom-policy-study-216795/

Some places that moved to self id previously required those who wanted to be recognised as the opposite sex to undergo surgery. We don't which is another reason why the UK is different and doesn't need self ID.

In Canada the journalists have started putting a picture of the transgender perp in the article so that people can see that they are saying woman and are actually talking about a transgender identified male suspect.

Cis my arse: I talked to mine about the homophobia in the transgender movement, and the damage done to young lesbians and gay men. One can show them evidence. There could be no 'bigot' accusations after that, and if they know nothing about it, as they usually do, it leaves them flummoxed but with a dim idea about how they themselves could challenge it without looking bigoted.

Suited that's scary, and some of it is already here

Self-id and Germany

Since 1981 Germany has had the TSG - the Transsexuellen Gesetz (transsexual law)

This law allows transgender people to do two things:
-change their first name
-change the sex recorded on their birth certificate

This law has been amended umpteen times but as it stands, it's been changed to the disadvantage of transsexual people - to show that you really are transgender, a diagnosis of GID is no longer necessary and wanting to have surgery, take hormones or live as a woman doesn't really count either (terribly weird phrasing)

In order to do either of those two things, the person has to apply to the court where a hearing will be held. No lawyer is permitted to take their place, the transgender person is on their own. After the hearing the court investigates, ordering two separate and independently conducted assessments of the person to be made.

In case only the first name was changed, if that person goes on to father a child or give birth, the name change becomes invalid and they have to repeat the process. (The child's birth certificate will always identify the parents by their birth sex and first name.)

A self-id process is now in the works which will do away with the hearing in court and the court ordering two separate expert opinions on the transgender person to be made. That is, the upper chamber has voted yes to urging the government to bring this in, but when it will do so is unclear as of today.

merry I thinks that's what worrying. There hasn't been enough elapsed time to know how this will pan out. So too many people are putting their fingers in ears and hoping it will all be ok. Surely SOMEONE needs to be mature and try and focus on the future?

If the bar is ‘has any woman been murdered by a trans man in a toilet or prison because of self id’ well then, everything is fine in those countries.

However, it’s difficult to measure the long term effect of losing the ability to define women and men objectively, the official endorsement of the concept of gender and the abandonment of scientific reason.

The only concrete thing that comes up is that our Equality Act 2010 is unique in its protections and no other country has similar so the effect of self id in the UK is more far-reaching than elsewhere

And when activists discuss this, they say it's only like getting your ID on your passport.

Well it isn't. Because getting a GRC allows you to be treated as a member of the different sex to that before. (with some exceptions) because of the EA. It's got nothing to do with the passport - as that's something that you can change with a GP letter and a deed poll

How can you gather meaningful statistics when a biological male can be female for statistical purposes?

Have a look at @iforgetalready on Twitter, who at this very moment is posting some chilling stories of men who've identified their way into women's spaces.