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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To any trans activists reading this forum

160 replies

yetanothertranswoman · 01/04/2018 20:15

Fuck off fucking life up for those trans people trying to live our lives.

I heard about some of the stuff people like you got up to but I've had my eyes opened today. Seriously opened.

Stop talking about lady penises.
Stop saying you are a woman.
Stop demanding women be quiet when they raise concerns about what's happening.
Stop harassing woman online
Stop intimidating women trying to speak about their concerns.
Stop initimidating women trying to do a clothes swap.
Stop demanding access to female spaces and just saying "It will be ok"
Stop taking women's spaces as women's officers when you haven't got a fucking clue about life as a woman.

All you are fucking doing is making life more difficult for the rest of us and scaring the shit out of women.

Yes - trans people exist. Some of us have gender dysphoria which is bloody hard to live with. Some people just seem to think that putting on a skirt is enough to make you 'a woman'.

Are you capable of thinking about women and their concerns? All I've seen online is people saying it will be ok.

No - trans people are not the enemy. But there are some trans people and trans activists who scare the shit out of me with their demands and their behaviour.

I've tried to keep my head low and keep out of all this. But no more.

You don't speak for me and you don't speak for many trans people out there.

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KateMiddleton1965 · 13/04/2018 11:32

Dear All,

I have just read through this thread and it has me feel very emotional. I am a woman with a transsexual past and I am very distressed by this unnecessary conflict which has been created by Maria Miller and her laughable Women and Equality Committee.

Justine Greening was interviewed some time ago saying that it should be easier to change your gender and the current system is intrusive and involves going to see your GP and a whole medical process gets kicked off. They want to streamline the process and demedicalise it and to stop treating people changing their gender as if it was some medical problem that needs fixing. This is a choice that people are making....

Everything she said in this interview is absolute nonsense. it is easy to find by googling "Justine Greening Gender Recognition"

And that will also bring up Theresa May's ludicrous speech in which she claims that "being trans is not an illness and should not be treated as such".

Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn's pronouncements about how people have to undergo "invasive medical tests" to get a GRC is simply not true and utterly clueless.

There is a long and ignoble legal history as far as the legal status of people in this country who have had "sex changes" is concerned.

This goes back to April Ashley's divorce case in Corbett V Corbett in in 1970. April being declared to be legally male meant that everyone in this position lost their rights. Before this, people used to quietly change their birth certificate and get on with their life.

One of those responsible for April losing her case was John Randall, the former clinical lead at Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic. If I remember correctly, Randall gave evidence that April was properly classified as a "male to female homosexual transsexualist" .

As Liz Hodgkinson points out in her book "Bodyshock: the truth about changing sex" (1987), it is interesting to speculate about the way the case might have gone if April had been an old Etonian and her husband from a Liverpool slum.

The Charing Cross "Gender Identity Clinic" started in 1966 and so Randall's evidence caused direct harm to his patients.

In 1979, the BBC broadcast "A Change of Sex" and there is an infamous scene with John Randall interrogating Julia Grant which can be found by looking for "Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic".

In that clip, Julia Grant had gone off and had breast surgery without doing a year of the so-called "Real Life Test".

When she tells him, Randall says, "I must say, I take extreme exception to you doing that. This is a medical matter and not a personal choice".

That is the reality of the situation and the reason why, after people like Mark Rees and Caroline "Tula" Cossey had taken the Government to the European Court of Human Rights, the ECHR eventually judged that the Government had to act in "Goodwin V United Kingdom" (2002).

Essentially, the NHS were providing treatment, including surgery, and the Government were failing to recognise the results of that treatment leading to feelings of anxiety, vulnerability and humiliation.

The Government had taken no steps to address the suffering and distress experienced by the applicant and other post -operative transsexuals and it was no longer a matter of controversy requiring the elapse of further time to cast light on the issues involved.

This judgement only applied to people who had been through the whole medical process and I can assure all of those reading this that going through a hellish and traumatic social and medical process only to be officially undermined by being a "non-person in the eyes of the law" is not an experience that I would wish on my worst enemy.

As I explained to my GP in 2004, all I have ever wanted to do was sort out my medical problem and make a positive contribution to society.

On October 14th 2004, I wrote a letter to Ian Beales, the head of the Press Complaints Commission, which Christine Burns subsequently published in a dossier entitled "Transsexual People and the Press".

This criminal offence under Article 8 is typical of the "trans" activists and you can read the letter in that dossier which remains online in spite of the fact that I wrote to "Squeaker" explaining how upset I was about it. pp38-39

Ian Beales responded by writing me a kind and humane and personal email saying that he found my account of my experiences particularly sad and harrowing and asked me if I was prepared to advise the PCC committee on a series of questions relating to press coverage.

I was delighted to do so and, from what I remember, the most positive examples I could provide were the serialisation of Conundrum by Jan Morris in The Sunday Times in 1974 and a 2002 Independent article by Deborah Orr.

When I wrote to Ian Beales in 2004, I really hoped that our ordeal might be coming to an end but this has not happened because of the influence of un-elected narcissistic "trans" activists on the Government.

There is an Equality and Human Rights commission film on utube

in which Stephen Whittle defines "trans" as "transvestite, transsexual, transgender" and talks about his surgically constructed prick.

By that definition, Dr Michael Haslam, Beaumont Society transvestite, Gender "psychiatrist" and convicted sexual criminal is "trans".

As a survivor/victim of sexual assault, I take extreme exception to being put in a category with someone like him and I am not alone in feeling great anger about this

As far as I am aware, the "trans" supports and so-called "trans community" in general have been silent about the experiences of the vulnerable women assaulted by "Dr" Michael Haslam and if anyone has any evidence to the contrary I would love to see it.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 12/04/2018 20:16

Flowers yet, jaycee and all. I could not ask for better company here on the wrong side of history

picklemepopcorn · 12/04/2018 20:06
Thanks

For every one slogging on trying to talk about this calmly. And extra Thanks for the trans people so badly impacted by the growing polarisation.

UpstartCrow · 12/04/2018 19:59

Thank you Flowers

Greymisty · 12/04/2018 19:52

Wish this could be made into a sticky.

moofolk · 12/04/2018 19:19

reluctant what have I missed about today?

yet and jaycee and all the wonderful feminists of mumsnet. BrewThanks

ReluctantCamper · 12/04/2018 18:24

today is a bad day. feminism is currently muted on this site. then I saw the debacle in cardiff.

i could fucking cry.

what the actual fuckity fuck is going on.

all we can do is keep talking. be reasonable, be open, but keep, keep talking about this. don't be silenced.

Flowers for those doing that.

Jayceedove · 12/04/2018 17:56

By far the best open discussion on these matters are occurring here.

Those in the trans community who believe in self ID should be busting a gut to persuade by reasoned argument why women in general and not a few transsexual women like yetanother and myself consider these plans dangerous.

For them. For us. For women.

If they have a case, present it, calmly. Let us discuss it.

If instead you run away, diss Mumsnet and cry transphobia do not be surprised if most sensible people see that as an inability to support what you want us all to accept.

I am sure many of us are willing to listen. But you have to do so with civility not hostility.

yetanothertranswoman · 12/04/2018 17:34

I just need to add to this after today

Stop fucking trying to get MN shut down as a place to have important conversations.

And stop fucking hassling venues which are hosting events where women and transwomen are meeting to discuss possible issues just because you are scared of women meeting.

Not in my name

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Greymisty · 09/04/2018 17:42

WineGin well said pps GinWine

CATTFacebookGroup · 09/04/2018 17:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HatFullofStars · 09/04/2018 17:26

yetanothertranswoman Flowers

I've been reading the Feminism forum for a while now, but your OP has finally made me post, which I haven't done before - not great at getting my words down.
I hate what the TRAs are doing to transwomen like yourself and I hate more what those people are making me think about all trans generally.

I like to think I'm a live and let live sort of person but their vile hate was making me become someone I'm not. I was becoming someone who would have let you become collateral damage, and I'm sorry for that. Because of your opening post I've had a bloody hard look at myself and I promise I won't do that again.
I never used to have a problem with transwomen and I'm so angry with those people who were making me change my outlook.
So thank you yetanothertranswoman and to all the transwomen who post here. Gin

Greymisty · 09/04/2018 16:14

@jayceedove Flowers

CATTamongthepigeons · 08/04/2018 22:18

Flowers Thanks to all of you.

Jayceedove · 08/04/2018 22:12

Happy to add my voice to this important thread, yetanother.

I am a transsexual woman who transitioned 45 years ago. With a GRC and amended birth certificate.

The whole debate is dominated by those who do not like the current rules that were carefully crafted in 2004 to protect trans people from hurting themselves or acting without thought that might hurt others.

To alter those you have to prove why.

These rules protect society, particularly women, who have to live with and accommodate those who are franchised by changing gender.

In return for that bond of trust from women it is totally fair and utterly reasonable to expect some demonstration of necessity and sincerity.

The right to ask for evidence is theirs. It is not yours to demand,.

This means you should prove mental stability, your objectivity in knowing what is and is not possible within the realms of biological reality, and to be properly assessed by doctors and psychiatrists to eliminate problems that can be better resolved in other ways.

If those doctors conclude that you should physically adapt your body as far as possible to allow you to integrate into society without limited intrusion then you can be granted special exemption to change gender.

It should be something that is granted by society as it is an extraordinary request. Not assumed to be a free choice.

It should take effort and resolve and not be easy.

This is the rest of your life you are talking about after all.

You want something this badly you should have to prove its necessity.

You should have to demonstrate that you are mentally stable and do not have some treatable psychiatric condition or fetish that might hurt others even with no intent or malice by yourself.

And you should have to prove after a suitable period of time, not five minutes on line, that this transition has cured your dysphoria and you have become a stable contributor to society and not a drain upon it.

If you argue that this is too hard and want to fill out a form, not bother to see a doctor as I don't want to change my body anyway, nor should I have to wait - just give me a new birth certificate, please.

Well that is not enough.

If you want to change the world's perception of you and be accepted by women as a non threatening presence then you should at least be willing to prove that you are doing this as an absolute necessity within your life.

Self ID removes necessary gatekeeping that protects society from misuse and guards the transitioner from their own mistakes.

There is no magic way of 'changing sex'.

You should not expect the world just to believe if you say you have.

You should follow the steps that are in place to make transition safe and monitored for all - including yourself.

Changing 'sex' is not and should not ever be made as easy as changing socks.

SecretsRsecrets · 08/04/2018 20:50

This is an excellent thread, glad that it is being bumped.

More Wine and Flowers

misscockerspaniel · 08/04/2018 18:18

To any TRAs reading this, please can we have your comments on the Laurel Hubbard story. You have left that thread alone. You know, the one about the 40 year old competing in the women's weightlifting at the Commonwealth Games. Or may be, that is a step too far, even for you.

Greymisty · 08/04/2018 18:09

Wine Flowers

flowersonthepiano · 08/04/2018 15:48

TRAs are the worst sort of transphobes. They're pretending to be you yetanother and they are fooling so many people.

So many are like Rachel Dolezal 'identifying as black', but everyone is falling for it.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/04/2018 15:39

Flowers and solidarity

And some Gin

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 15:16

Absolutely Thanks

pieceofpurplesky · 08/04/2018 15:08

🙌🏻

yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 15:04

I feel that this is an appropriate time to bump this up - given that there are trans activists and journalists reading this.

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Truscum · 02/04/2018 22:38

After venturing onto sm again I’ll take the Wine Grin

misscockerspaniel · 02/04/2018 16:07

Just and Truscum a virtual invite to Brew and Cake.