Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

How many people complaining about this decision HAVE to use the Caledonian sleeper? They don't have another, cheaper, option?

I have used it before because it was the cheapest way to get from A to B for the time I needed to be at B. The alternative was very expensive flights + taxi. Many people who use it do so for business travel; a lot of Scottish MPs use it for travelling to/from London (although they don't travel in the shared cabins).

strongly, not strontly ffs

Allington all well and good for you. What about others who who don't feel that way. I object strontly to your comparison of refusing to sleep in a same-sex space being with racisim. Women who don't want to share with men have good reasons. It isn't reverse sexism or transphobia, honestly. They don't trust men because they have experience that men are not to be trusted. Not because their bigots.

YY that's not your experience. YY NAMALT. We know. That's not the point.

So, we have established that:

• from now on, the Caledonian sleeper should be regarded as mixed sex

• this has been the case for years with youth hostels, without the slightest concern

• unlike youth hostels, the Caledonian sleeper is not a budget option. If you can afford the sleeper you can afford the other options

In what way is this undermining anyone's human rights?

As is the Caledonian Sleeper from now on

No actually it isn't. For the next 6 months it is available to book as shared accommodation with a randomly allocated woman if you are a woman or man if you are a man. After October shared accommodation will only be offered to travellers who have chosen to share with each other.

And I have to say that all of my experiences of mixed sex dorms involved other people. I was never alone just me and one bloke.

But I have spent plenty of nights in communal dorms without having any threat.

So have I. But that doesn't mean I can't be empathetic to women who would not be comfortable to do this?

It's interesting the way people who want to minimise women's concerns about being up and close with males always relate it to white people being racist towards black people. When actually, given the last few centuries of history and societal power structures, the appropriate comparison would in fact be a black person who was afraid to share with a white person. I'm never sure whether people doing this are being disingenuous or if they're simply experiencing an honest failure of understanding.

And frankly, if a black South African didn't feel comfortable sharing with a white stranger, after everything they've been through, I'd find that perfectly understandable.

It's about the power dynamics. I've slept in a lot of mixed dorms in mountain huts. This means that I typically have a friend present (whoever I'm climbing with), and there is hopefully the bystander effect - a whole load of other people around if anyone tried anything funny.

Being alone in a lockable compartment with a biological male I've never met before and don't know from Adam - totally different.

As for how many men and how many transwomen are predatory and the precise percentages relative to the population at large - well, it doesn't matter. There's behaviour well short of sexual violence that worries me. I'm sure there are very nice transwomen out there, but how would I guarantee I got one of those rather than the sort who tweet about "punching terfs", "starting a ruck at Milwall", the sort who verbally attacked the woman on the picket line the other day, the guy who allegedly punched the woman at speakers' corner (I have seen the video, but don't want to prejudice any court proceedings one way or the other). There are plenty of instances of transactivists showing very male-pattern aggressive and violent behaviour towards women. I would not want to be in a confined space with any of them.

As is the Caledonian Sleeper from now on

Lots of youth hostels have mixed sex dorms

And your point is what? They are presumably offered as mixed sex accommodation from the outset.

None of my reasonable comments from yesterday on the Daily Mail site are showing. Ridiculous censorship.

Why does willingness to share a bedroom mean willingness to strip off? Lots of youth hostels have mixed sex dorms. That doesn't mean everyone is prancing about naked.

Errr, well yes, I thought my posts had made clear I slept in a very small space with TWO WHOLE people of another sex. Actually more than 2 if you include the various youth hostels I've stayed in. I generally got changed in a cubicle in the toilets - more to save the blushes of others than myself

Why would any one's blushes need to be spared by your way of thinking?

Lass civil servants will always get single-occupancy berths, because they are typically travelling with official laptops/tablets/phones, and are not supposed to leave these unattended where a third party can get at them! (Useful out, because there's no other circs which would justify first class travel.)

I do make use of two person berths when I travel with DS - given where I live, getting to the rellies in the north of Scotland is an epic journey, and the sleeper bought in advance is comparable in expense to the overnight hotel stay which would otherwise be required.

But for me the position is quite simple - transwomen are biologically male, no matter how sincerely they wish they had been born female. And I do not wish to sleep in a berth with a biologically male individual I do not know.

I think everyone should be able to get changed in privacy, if they want to. Whatever their chromosomal make-up and that of the others around them. Everyone should be able to go to sleep feeling safe.

But I have spent plenty of nights in communal dorms without having any threat.

Errr, well yes, I thought my posts had made clear I slept in a very small space with TWO WHOLE people of another sex. Actually more than 2 if you include the various youth hostels I've stayed in. I generally got changed in a cubicle in the toilets - more to save the blushes of others than myself.

And weirdly, there are quite a lot of people who would find sharing with people of another race far more threatening than of another sex. Y'know, blacks being sub-human and all that...

make adolescent and pre adolescent children get changed together?

Sorry I meant make adolescent and pre adolescent children of the opposite sex get changed together, that didn't read right!

Just as the acceptable norm right now is by sex.

So you dont think we should have any sex segregated spaces? Mixed prisons, mixed DV refuges, mixed toilets, make adolescent and pre adolescent children get changed together?

You can't see any problem with any of that?

So in the impact on anyone's life, it's a non-issue? But great to bash the trans-'activists'...?

Allington are you seriously saying that not wanting to get undressed and sleep in a very small space with a person of the opposite sex is no different from not wanting to get undressed and sleep in a very small space with a person of a different ethnic group?

Whilst personally the thought of getting undressed and sleeping in a very small space with any stranger is something I wouldn't contemplate it seems obvious to me there is no comparison.

The Caledonian Sleeper berths are one of the most expensive ways of getting from London to Scotland.

Edinburgh/ London the seated options on the sleeper train are considerably cheaper at £45 in advance (or £65 for flexible) as opposed to £100 in advance (£125 flexible) for shared or £140 in advance (£170 flexible) for single occupancy.

I am really not convinced there is a huge pool of people who are willing and able to pay £100, and risk sharing with a stranger, but are not willing and able to pay £140.

If I were using it for work expenses would cover a single occupancy cabin. I know a couple of people who are employed by the Scottish government who use it. I don't know what the expenses policy there is but they are sufficiently senior I expect they would pay the difference themselves if need be. I would be surprised if they had to.

Well, that's where we probably differ. Because I believe most trans-people are not perpetrators, but simply (like my gay friends) people trying to be who they feel themselves to be, and expressing that.

It's not my country btw, I'm from the UK and have lived and worked here for about a decade. With close gay friends/housemates in the UK. Plus adopted (black South African) DD and planning to return home in the next couple of year, partly because I think she'll experience less racism as a minority in the UK than as a majority in SA.

Just to address your assumptions...

it is amazing how many people genuinely believe that race is an acceptable reason to segregate. Just as the acceptable norm right now is by sex. And only a few years ago to find you've shared an intimate space with someone of the same sex but different sexual orientation would be horrifying.

I'd imagine the segregation in your country is to keep the gay/BME group in their state of oppression. Not to ensure their safety against their straight white perpetrators.

How many people complaining about this decision HAVE to use the Caledonian sleeper? They don't have another, cheaper, option?