Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

Allington
Why do you think the cabins were set segregated in the first place?

You are all right. All those trans-people are nasty men planning to rape women. We all have the right to a comfortable bed (in a single compartment) whenever and wherever we chose to travel. Unlike the 99% of the rest of the world...

The sleeper was a godsend when travelling from London after work to see DH in our courting days. It helped me get to and from my Mum (who was in her last weeks with cancer) without missing work and losing money. DD and I used it recently to visit friends in London.

There is not always an alternative if you live in remote corners of Scotland.

The day train means a whole day travelling (6.30am gets in at 5.30pm)

It is 4 hours and 2 buses to Glasgow Airport. Then flight.

The anecdote, by the way, was a case where my fears and perceptions turned out to be my own mindset, not the actions of others.

As were mine once when I slept in a shared cabin on a train between Singapore and Malaysia. Other women have not been so lucky though, and having read news reports of those after doing it (I was young and fearless) I don't think I'd do it again!

I'll be happy to share intimate spaces with men, just as soon as they stop being almost universally bigger and stronger than me, and have learned, as a class, to control themselves so that they're not using that extra strength to visit violence on each other and on women.

As I understand it, the sleeper train has the normal seated carriages as well? With seats that are cheaper?

I know a lot of people who have their tickets pre booked for them by their workplace.
So they have shared cabins.
Presumably those work places would no be liable as the single sex provision is no longer being met.

When actually, given the last few centuries of history and societal power structures, the appropriate comparison would in fact be a black person who was afraid to share with a white person. I'm never sure whether people doing this are being disingenuous or if they're simply experiencing an honest failure of understanding.

I am never quite sure if it is because people believe the zombie lies that never die or simply DARVO.

What you were doing allington was making a false equivalence.

The accurate comparison to a woman being afraid of being in a confined space with an unknown male is a black person being afraid of a white person, not a white person preferring not to share with a black person because they think the black person is subhuman. This is just a fact. The racism your daughter has experienced would be more closely equivalent to a male mistreating a female, if one insists on making a racial analogy here.

As I understand it, the sleeper train has the normal seated carriages as well? With seats that are cheaper?

Sigh - I said that several posts back.

The London to Scotland sleeper train has sleeper cabins which you can book as a couple (no idea what they cost) or as single occupancy for £140- £170 or shared occupancy for £100 -£125. If you book the shared occupancy you might be lucky and get a cabin to yourself because most people book single occupancy and even if you are willing to share there may well be no-one else willing. If you are unlucky you will share with a strange woman if you are a woman or a man if a man.

The seated carriages are mixed and are £45-£65.

I can't see how anyone else has an interest.

Because some of us might still need to travel on the sleeper before October, perhaps?

This kind of shruggy dismissive "well I don't know the details of any of this, but regardless of that I'm sure you're just making a fuss about nothing" response is really not helpful to anybody.

As I understand it, the sleeper train has the normal seated carriages as well? With seats that are cheaper?

Yes, it does, although travelling in one of those seats while trying to get any kip is absolute hell. I think I got about 30 minutes of sleep once over the whole night doing that!

I hope anyone with a booking that wants a refund due to the new policy will get one. I can't see how anyone else has an interest.

As I understand it, the sleeper train has the normal seated carriages as well? With seats that are cheaper?

Can we stop conflating standing by the scientific fact that trans woman are biologically men (often with their genitalia intact) with homophobic or racist beliefs? It’s utter tripe and will end up landing you in court.

It's not just about cost. For example if I wanted to leave London late on Sunday night (later than the last flight) for an early morning meeting in Edinburgh, the sleeper would be the thing to do. But I don't think the argument about other options is actually relevant, having said that.

To me the relevant issue is two people in a confined and lockable space. I'll happily share almost any space with a trans woman, but I can definitely understand why some women would be very uncomfortable sharing a sleeper compartment with a trans woman, unless they know her personally perhaps.

Because I believe most trans-people are not perpetrators, but simply (like my gay friends) people trying to be who they feel themselves to be, and expressing that.

I believe that too. It's the predatory buggers who PRETEND they're trans in order to assault that worry me personally. And they exist. Don't kid yourself they don't. And they are doing a massive amount of damage to the genuine trans community.

No one here is anti-trans. We're anti fake-trans-in-order-to-gain-access-to-women.

I am very sorry that any woman feels uncomfortable in a mixed dorm. But the reality is that this is their preconceptions, and their choice to avoid. Not that all men are predators.

So a male bodied transwomen can say they don't want to share with men because they are afraid of attack. And we all need to listen to this and change legislation accordingly.

But if a woman voices that same concern then tough shit because that is just her 'preconception' and she will just have to avoid that situation?

Right, got it.

Giving transwomen a single berth seems a pragmatic way of enabling them to feel safe too

I don't follow this comment- anyone can get a single berth if they pay for it.

Giving transwomen a single berth seems a pragmatic way of enabling them to feel safe too

There are single sex provisions on the trains in question, they aren’t honouring them

Yes that is the point- why do they bother asking at the point of booking if the customer is male or female?

Lass, I'm aware many people don't share (which is why they're changing the model), but a fair number still do. I've travelled in a shared cabin for work before because my employer had a blanket ban on travelling first-class, even on the sleeper.

And no, I'm not minimising the suspicion of a black S African to a white S African. My (black) DD was told - openly, in front of me at the age of 4 - that 'girls with brown skin can't play, only girls with peach skin'. She has experienced racism that you (probably) can't even begin to imagine, and as her mother I desperately want to protect her but can't. I can only help her understand why so much of the world is brainwashed about brown skin.

That doesn't mean she is suspicious of white people. The person who loves her most (and, at present although the teen years are approaching! loves most, is white).

I am very sorry that any woman feels uncomfortable in a mixed dorm. But the reality is that this is their preconceptions, and their choice to avoid. Not that all men are predators.

As I have said, this is not from someone who is lucky enough to escape sexual violence. But I have been lucky enough to have a brother who is safe, and male friends who are safe. Not every man is a predator, and I don't think we do each other any favours to behave as if they are.

Many people who use it do so for business travel; a lot of Scottish MPs use it for travelling to/from London (although they don't travel in the shared cabins)

According to Scotrail very few people book the share with a stranger option. For same the reasons MPs don't share I doubt business customers would share either.

But there are all sorts of situations where you might end up travelling in close proximity to a man, trans or otherwise. If that's too much of a risk for you, don't do it.

Charming.

There are single sex provisions on the trains in question, they aren’t honouring them.
But that’s fine, I’ll just say at home.

Segregation by biological sex has long been considered necessary in certain circumstances, to keep women & girls safe.

Transwomen are biologically men, with the physical strength of men and with the same rate of criminal offending as other men;
so a much higher rate of sexual and other violent offences than women have.
Most transwomen also have a penis.

I would refuse to be in a space with a transwoman, in any circumstances in which I would refuse to be in that space with any other man.

Re the absurd comparison to racism:
It is imo racist to bring in measures which will lead to some ethnic minorities being less able to participate in normal life.

So, we have established that:

- from now on, the Caledonian sleeper should be regarded as mixed sex

What are you on about? The Caledonian Sleeper is NOT advertised as "mixed sex" If it were this discussion would not arise. Why if is to be regarded as "mixed sex" does it ask when you book if you are male or female?