Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

That is what they keep telling us, every day on the tumblr and twitter and Facebook. That they intend to beat or rape us into submission.

Allington seems very naive. But I expect she'd still think they are expressing their true authentic selves. Or that they aren't the trans people she means, and therefore her circular arguments are sound.

Allington do you understand how much you are telling people about yourself here?

The argument is just ridiculous.

We are scared of violence from men
Well yes, we women are too. It’s a shit situation eh?
So we will be in your space
Eh? But you’re a bloke. No. What about our safety
Bigot!

I can only imagine that most people have no idea what the reforms will actually do. They do not benefit people with gender dysphoria. They do not benefit the old school transsexual community who were largely accepted and coexisted well.
They do not benefit ANYONE except men who want to enter women’s spaces.

Scotrail are going to have their arses sued to high heaven and back after the first assault.

Why is this a virtue competition?

Well you're virtue signalling for Britain so one might ask you the same.

I hope anyone with a booking that wants a refund due to the new policy will get one. I can't see how anyone else has an interest

Why do you "have an interest"?

What have you done apart from read about it? In what way have you left your comfort zone?
At this point I think you must have run out of things to throw against the wall to see if they will stick.

Why is this a virtue competition?

It's not. It's a discussion about women feeling safe on overnight sleeper trains. It is okay for women to talk about this.

You are all right. All those trans-people are nasty men planning to rape women.

That is what they keep telling us, every day on the tumblr and twitter and Facebook. That they intend to beat or rape us into submission.
I like to take the advice of Maya Angelou and when they tell me who they are I believe them.

I am always very impressed when women say they have slept in mixed sex environments without ever waking up to being groped.

Damn right. I did my share of youth hostellong as a young ‘in and witnessed thefts, attempted rapes and (along with other occupants of the dorm) pretty much pulled a guy off a sobbing woman once.
It is not a safe environment and I’d never do it again. Not would I encourage anyone to.

I hav'nt read about women only toilets in India. I have been involved in the drive to make toilets (flushing or chemical) available to all in Cape Town PLUS proper lighting and policing to make it safe to women and children. Given the horrendous levels of sexual violence in townships. What have you done apart from read about it? In what way have you left your comfort zone?

Why is this a virtue competition?

Well it’s funny you should say that because the ‘all men are a danger to us’ line is used by TRAs to gain access to women’s spaces.

Exactly.

I am always very impressed when women say they have slept in mixed sex environments without ever waking up to being groped.
It happened to me many times in my youth in the sixties and I am told by young girls that it often happens to them these days.
You have been very fortunate.

You are all right. All those trans-people are nasty men planning to rape women.

Well it’s funny you should say that because the ‘all men are a danger to us’ line is used by TRAs to gain access to women’s spaces.

It’s a totally illogical argument. But it goes:

1. We are scared of violence from men
2. So we, actual men, with the same rate and pattern of sexual violence against women as regular old men will need to come into women’s spaces.
3. Oh and anyone who objects is a hateful TERF trying to erase us from history. Shut up women.

You couldn’t make it up. It’s just ludicrous. Except it’s really happening and women are beating the brunt of it.

A single sex berth (however you define it) is not a Universal Human Right. - agreed
Can you agree that a woman who doesn’t want to share a single sex berth is not equivalent to a racist?

No-one has said it's a universal human right. We have said that if a company advertises a single sex service it's reasonable for its customers to expect a single sex service

If they offered shared accommodation or single sex, only when it is possible to so, there would be no case to answer.

A single sex berth (however you define it) is not a Universal Human Right.

But a man wanting to self id so that they can use whichever sex segregated facility they feel like is?

Allington your life is tough elsewhere argument is completely irrelevant.

What is the point of asking customers if they are male or female when they book if that is to have no bearing on the accomodation offered?

Again with the straw-man stuff.

No-one has said it's a universal human right. We have said that if a company advertises a single sex service it's reasonable for its customers to expect a single sex service.

And we've argued that a woman's desire for a single sex space is every bit as valid a desire as that of a man (who deeply wishes he was a woma)n to be placed in what was, up until his arrival, a single-sex space.

Unless of course you want to argue that the trans-identifying male has universal human rights to enter women's single sex spaces based on his sincerely felt desire to be a woman, but women have no universal human rights to have those single sex spaces due to biological differences between them and men. Which I presume you're not, because that would be an utterly incoherent position to hold.

That the travelling you all refer to is a luxury not available to 99% of the world.

yeah, I don't think 'starving children in India don't even have trains!' is the most compelling argument you could make here.

Feminists are always getting told that we're being spoilt and trivial and ridiculous to care about our rights over here, when women over there have it so much worse.

You are all right. All those trans-people are nasty men planning to rape women.

Like I said Allington how come when transwomen say they don't want to use the men's for fear of attack they don't get NAMALT thrown at them?

Women get told all the time that they need to keep themselves safe: don't walk home alone, don't get too drunk, don't wear too short a skirt, don't get in a taxi on your own etc. All things which only curtail the woman's behaviour of course. Because you never know when there will be a rapist lurking somewhere and if a woman does get attacked its because she didn't protect herself.

But when women take other steps which might stop a man doing what they want to do (eg. not going up for a drink with a date, insisting on sex segregated spaces) suddenly NAMALT and women are paranoid that there is a rapist lurking somewhere. They have to 'get over it' and 'deal with their preconceptions'.

It's a tale as old as time sweetie.

Well, no. I have pointed out that I had slept in the same space as unknown men numerous times. That being able to easily and cheaply visit family whenever you want is not a human right. That the travelling you all refer to is a luxury not available to 99% of the world.

A single sex berth (however you define it) is not a Universal Human Right.

All those trans-people are nasty men

Oh FFS allongton. Of course they're not. But the ones who ARE nasty don't have that fact tattooed on their foreheads so we can conveniently avoid them.

However nice most men are, a significant number of women don't want to sleep or share showers or whatever with them. Even the nice ones. And that's ok.

When in doubt retreat into straw-manery.

"All those trans-people are nasty men planning to rape women." said precisely no-one, ever.

What we have said is transwomen are, biologically speaking, men. That's just a fact. Damn that biological reality for being so transphobic.

Also, women are, understandably, often very wary round strange men. We have good reason to be. One in four of us will be raped or sexually assaulted at some point in our lives, 98% of sexual offences are carried out by men, round about 6% of men will admit to behaviours which meet the legal definition of rape.

If I am offered single sex accommodation by a train company overnight in a confined space with just one other person, I expect that accommodation to be exactly as advertised - single sex. Not single "what gender I feel today."

And funny you should bring up the other 99% of the world. You might want to read up on the campaign for women's toilets (not women plus third-sex men, women, as in the people with vaginas) in India. There is a massive problem with women in India not being able to participate in life outside the house safely because they have nowhere safe to go to the toilet.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28039513

I am right, yes.

Your analogies are all impressively inaccurate, though, and the fact that women are treated worse in many other places does nothing to assist your argument.

Sex*