Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

OK, I am back at work tomorrow after the public holidays. I will ask the 2 colleagues most involved in supporting abused women. One is from West Africa, here as a refugee, years of experience counselling women who are experiencing domestic violence. Other would have been classified 'coloured - Muslim subset'. Also trained and experienced in trauma counselling.

I will ask them how abusive the rail company's decision is. I suspect that they will collapse with laughter. But I will report back. And tbh, their view carries more weight with me than anyone here

This whole conversation with the delightful Allington just goes to show the attitude that exists: that women have to PROVE their right to single sex spaces. The law changes coming up (and in fact the way policy is being implemented now) make every single sex service provider unable to do that unless women can PROVE why its needed or wanted.

People like Allington sound like barristers defending sex crimes, "woman PROVE it". This is the whole effing point. Why should we have to prove this over and over and over again? Why should we?

Why are men not trying to prove they are safe to share with?

Hairy "Thirty years of working with women and children who are victims of male sexual violence and you don't see the importance of single sex spaces? Am I the only person having a major credulity failure here?"

Well I'm confused. I note that Allington hasn't answered my question and also that Allington says (paraphrasing) that it would be a shame to see all men as a danger.

I don't think Allington will engage with me but I have female relatives who help run a domestic violence refuge in another country. They were born and raised in that country. Both they and I can see the value in seeing all men as a danger, to be frank. I don't have bruises, but they have been beaten up by angry men for sure.

I've never felt it was a problem to treat men with extreme caution and sadly I can name two local situations where me running away - literally - saved me from being a victim.

Also Allington seems to have no thought of business travel and while crowing about how much work they do to ensure women's safety, doesn't feel the need to help in accessing that.

plus no thought for the person who might be visiting a sick relative or whatever. I don't know. There seems to be a major race to the bottom going on here. If I told that to my auntie, she'd start talking about hole in the ground loos (laughingly, because she knows I'll never visit).

anyway, that was all a bit surreal.

When I did the sharing with a stranger thing on the sleeper as a student it was because I could take my bike from London to Inverness. Bikes go free, planes are risky for bikes unless you want the fangle of dismantling it and putting it in a bike box. When now going South on them I still often take my bike. I find them great because I work all day Friday , get the sleeper down, have all weekend with my dad then sleeper back late Sun ready for work on Monday. Much less daytime time wasted than flying and Euston is more useful for me than the airports.

Once you are putting your own comfort on the line I will find it easier to believe your commitment

Are you FUCKING kidding me?
I’m very grateful for you doing your job and helping communities good for you how dare you come out with this trite comment?
You should be ashamed of yourself. I’m embarrassed for you.

I am always very impressed when women say they have slept in mixed sex environments without ever waking up to being groped.
It happened to me many times in my youth in the sixties and I am told by young girls that it often happens to them these days.
You have been very fortunate.

Yep! 2000 whilst inter railing my friend and I were groped more times that I can count (ended up sleeping shifts) and we once had to hold a rail car door shut from one particularly aggressive twat who tried to pull another female passenger off (and her dress at the same time) somewhere in Germany.

Allington, you have tried every way you can to dismiss, ridicule or trivialise the actual fears and concerns women have here. What you haven't done once is actually engage with them as something legitimate. Perhaps try that?

allongton I’m sure your work is worthwhile but it has little relevance to the issue at hand. I don’t tell a person with bowel cancer that they’re incredibly lucky it’s not pancreatic.

It’s not a zero sum game - we can worry about Syria, human rights violations in the Congo , hunger and world peace. And none have any bearing on the issue at hand.

It’s a Tu quoque logical fallacy. Are you honestly saying there's a hierarchy of wrongs and we can’t deal with Terrible Thing #32728495 until Terrible Thing #32728494 has been ticked off the list?

A single sex berth (however you define it) is not a Universal Human Right.

Neither is a single gender berth. Now we've established that this isn't about universal human rights once and for all, perhaps we could leave that subtopic alone?

Also, speaking as a woman who fights for trafficked women to be granted asylum, you don't speak for me. You don't get to say what people in my field think.

Drip feed!

To be fair they are not that more expensive and an employer who won't shell out for the small difference is an idiot for several reasons.

They're about £70-£80 more expensive depending on when you're travelling. Employer being ridiculous was a point I made at the time, but to no avail!

Thirty years of working with women and children who are victims of male sexual violence and you don't see the importance of single sex spaces? Am I the only person having a major credulity failure here?

OK, then listen to your echo chamber. Everything I say is worthless.

You spent all the credibility you had in the first ten posts, Allington.
Your current appeal to authority is invalidated by everything that came before.

????

It is bait and switch advertising and is a violation of law.

Of course, I am naive. Because in 30 years of single traveling and work in the NGO sector with gender equality I have never encountered women or children who have been raped, abused and exploited.

I wish I hadn't.

But I have, and those living and working in this field, strangely, don't find it as simplistic as most of the posters here. Those helping abused women make escape plans in a context where there is no state support, for example. Or those fighting for trafficked women to be granted asylum. Or for refugee children to have access to (free) state education on the same basis as children born here. Once you are putting your own comfort on the line I will find it easier to believe your commitment...

The single cabins are more expensive, and prohibited by some employers who send employees on business travel (including an employer I had)

To be fair they are not that more expensive and an employer who won't shell out for the small difference is an idiot for several reasons.

In future, don't book one of a double sleeper unless you are willing to share with a man

But the rail company is not selling shared accommodation as being mixed sex so why should a customer be willing to share with a man?

In future, don't book one of a double sleeper unless you are willing to share with a man

The single cabins are more expensive, and prohibited by some employers who send employees on business travel (including an employer I had).

Come on. This is not hard to get. You can follow this, you really can.

End of problem?

No, because it disadvantages the woman who doesn’t want to share with a man, financially and in terms of amenity access.

End of problem?

No, not at all. It merely serves to highlight the much greater problem here.

But if a woman voices that same concern then tough shit because that is just her 'preconception' and she will just have to avoid that situation?

If we feel like this, we must be "re-educated," according to new guidance for various organisations.

Allington

Just to clarify, as long as sex segregated berths do exist, if a transgender woman, no surgery, claimed it was their right to share with a female passenger, and said that asking them to share with a man was a violation of their rights, you would also say "no, that's not your right" to them?

Essentially I'm wondering where you think a non surgical trans person goes, under the current system of sex segregation.

Let me suggest a solution.

All women who have booked a single sex double sleeper as for a refund or change to a non-sleeper seat with the difference refunded. I'll back you all the way.

In future, don't book one of a double sleeper unless you are willing to share with a man

End of problem?