Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

Allington
Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper. If you have one booked, cancel and demand a refund - I am with you all the way

The bookings are offered on the basis of selecting to share with male or female. Why are you wittering on about "don't book a sleeper" ? The bookings are not offered as mixed booking.

You're right. The people I will ask don't know their own best interests as well as you do.

Or perhaps, given they are educated and independent women, you have an incredibly ignorant and prejudiced view of black women, who are capable of understanding the complexities of gender relations as much (hey, maybe more?) than you do?

Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper

Don't want to be subjected to sexual harassment. Don't go out in public.

This is not how to work to support women. I really don't care about your virtue signalling re women in SA or other countries in Africa - you clearly have a hierarchy of "deserving" women (victims whom you can patronise), and "undeserving" women.

So why should women who don’t want to sleep with men they don’t know have their preferences come below transwomen (men) who don’t want to sleep with women they don’t know?

The problem here is male violence.
Transwomen are a subset of men, so when do they take responsibility for their safety rather than pinning it on women?

If transwomen feel safe around men then they need to campaign against the dangerous men (feminists would probably be able to help them - we know how to fight for our rights) not the equally as at risk women.
By opening up the spaces to anyone who identifies as women they are putting not only women but transwomen at risk. It’s selfish in the extreme.

Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper.

Leaving aside all the points people have made repeatedly about how the sleeper is often the only way to get where they need to be for the money they have:

Until very recently the shared sleeper accommodation was single-sex. This has now changed, although they are still advertising it as if it hasn't. Why is it unreasonable to complain about this change? Why is it unreasonable to want single-sex accommodation?

Who would you consider more repressed than the people you’re going to ask? Because I’ll go and ask them. And then someone can go and ask the people below them and so on and so on.
Meanwhile back in the real world we can actually fight more than one cause and realise that women have issues with safety the world over.

You are being deliberately disingenuous and I believe you to be of the Claig variety.

Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper. If you have one booked, cancel and demand a refund - I am with you all the way.

spring yep, bottle opened. It's amazing what is imagined about you when you dare to disagree with the crowd. No matter how much you are committed to gender equality and live to your life by that ethos.

There seems to be no space for genuine disagreement

doesn't anyone need a drink yet!!!

Allington, can you really not understand why women would not feel safe and comfortable sharing overnight accommodation with men they don't know? Really?

OK, I am back at work tomorrow after the public holidays. I will ask the 2 colleagues most involved in supporting abused women. One is from West Africa, here as a refugee, years of experience counselling women who are experiencing domestic violence. Other would have been classified 'coloured - Muslim subset'. Also trained and experienced in trauma counselling.

Marvellous, and meanwhile you'll still be wrong and grossly overstepping when you tell us that the people in these fields per se agree with you, rather than just the people you know who are in those fields. You do not speak for us all. Cease attempting to.

DD has just insisted she has a human right to pick her nose AND eat it ..

She sounds smarter than you do already.

OK, I am back at work tomorrow after the public holidays. I will ask the 2 colleagues most involved in supporting abused women. One is from West Africa, here as a refugee, years of experience counselling women who are experiencing domestic violence. Other would have been classified 'coloured - Muslim subset'. Also trained and experienced in trauma counselling.

I will ask them how abusive the rail company's decision is. I suspect that they will collapse with laughter. But I will report back. And tbh, their view carries more weight with me than anyone here

That is completely irrelevant as to whether or not the train company is complying with its contract commitments in relation to the occupancy of shared carriages.

Out of interest, the toilets you're setting up in South Africa, in a context of (as you yourself acknowledge) massive sexual violence - are they single sex? Did the women you're providing the toilets for express any preference?

Too much brainwashing. Mind so open, the brains fell out.

Yes, I am part of the problem because men identifying as women is the real issue instead of men identifying as men in the context of toxic masculinity

It is a real issue.

DD has just insisted she has a human right to pick her nose AND eat it ...

Top trumps in suffering. Lovely way to support all women.

Yes, I am part of the problem because men identifying as women is the real issue instead of men identifying as men in the context of toxic masculinity

Rather than framing the question to your colleagues in terms of how abusive is the policy, try and more open ended approach and ask what they think about the train policy alongside self identification.

As soon as you frame it in your rather abrupt 'how ridiculous; it's not abusive it's a privilege to have public transport' you're not going to get honest answers because people don't want to be thought of as transphobic.

now wondering if there's a genuine misunderstanding going on here...but experience says MRA....

Now you a flinging the daft word "identifying" into every sentence you are clearly no longer occupying the same intellectual space as the people here.

Sorry, 'discussing men identifying as women'.

I was abused by a male teacher identifying as male. Later stalked by a male neighbour identifying as male.

Why are men not trying to prove they are safe to share with?

Because thanks to people like Allington, they know they will never need to.

Why are men not trying to prove they are safe to share with?

Yes. I think I'd be ok with being locked in a small space overnight with a random man if men committed violent crime at the same rate as women.

Allington this isn't a pity contest. We don't really care how many people you can find to laugh at this, the fact that you want to laugh really sets out your stall. You are refusing to see this from anyone else's perspective. You are part of the problem.

And those abused by men identifying as men seem to ignore that we are identifying as women...