Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

Also the increasingly overbearing narrative that wanting single sex spaces at all is exclusionary and selfish, that the right thing to do is suck up your discomfort.

It’s the drip drip drip of erosion that is the worry.

YY. The further legitimisation of women being placed in this position. The further normalisation of males in female spaces.

“biologically MALE but present as female” that is.

There are few enough people sharing (although there are still some!) that a third space would work fine as an option here. If you’re biologically, but present as female, and don’t feel comfortable in male sleeping spaces, there should be a way to say that on booking so that you’re top priority for travelling alone or sharing with someone else in the same position. I’d be fine with sharing with another woman in favour of a trans person having their own cabin, then everyone feels safe and comfortable.

(Of course I see from Twitter that we are all just awful transphobes for even wanting a solution that isn’t “continue to sell tickets as single-sex while not actually providing that”. The GOOD women are all totally happy to share with male-bodied people, it’s only us bigots who mind! )

Won't work for paedophiles, as PP points out you have to be 16 or over to travel alone in these cabins.

flights of fantasy as 15 year olds being threatened by trans people.

It’s not trans people as such, it’s men who will use this as a loop hole to gain access to vulnerable women and girls. Think that won’t happen? Just think about all the men in the past who trained as teachers, priests, scout leaders, ran children’s homes just to access children and vulnerable women. Why bother with all that any more when you can just stick on a frock and call yourself Crystal.

For the hard of thinking and easily confused, I am not suggesting for one moment that trans women are child abusers or rapists, not for one moment. What I am saying is that men who are paedophiles will be able to claim they are trans

And who said anything about "threatened"?

Don't you understand that men don't actually need to do anything illegal - or even deliberate - to make women feel uncomfortable?

A woman might well be made uncomfortable sharing a room with a man even if he does absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever.

The basis of single sex facilities is about more than just violence.

?

Flights of fancy?

You have said that you would never share with a stranger of either sex which is your choice but you have to realise it is extreme. Young people can and do travel around, loads of the time, all over the place. I certainly did when I was young, and my friends too!

The issue as ever is also not likely to be "trans people" but they allow for anyone who says they are a woman in with the women. This is opening the system up for abuse.

Many women- especially younger ones - 16 / 18 /22 whatever would be much less likely to complain than older women.

Older women who are more likely to complain would likely be asked to leave themselves.

It is not a flight of fancy given that many organisations now go on self ID - irrespective of the equalities act

And that some of the more extreme TRAs are seeking out single sex facilties to "test" whether they are "trans inclusive" and then clobbering them on social media if they are not.

If you have decided that this policy is not a problem after all then that is a pretty quick turnaround. So the idea is that you don't think women should be offered same sex, and given same gender ie could be in with a chap,

But as soon as the conversation takes a turn you don't like - or maybe there is a poster you don't like - you change your mind? And say oh well it's only 6 months and I wouldn't share with a stranger anyway and it's very unlikely so actually it's not a problem after all.

Lass your previous posts have been saying it is not unreasonable for women to want single sex berths. Adn challenging the person who says their policy is not a problem

Have you changed your mind?

No , but I dislike tone and the turn this thread has taken with such flights of fantasy as 15 year olds being threatened by trans people.

It's not actually that unlikely given that a small number of TRAs are actively seeking out single sex stuff and trying to use it to see if they meet resistance.

Lass your previous posts have been saying it is not unreasonable for women to want single sex berths. Adn challenging the person who says their policy is not a problem.

Have you changed your mind?

It’s not that there are 1000s of women wanting to use the sleeper and 100s of trans women stopping them, it’s the principal.
It’s quite likely that this situation will never arise.
It’s the drip drip drip of erosion that is the worry.

I am really not sure what you're getting in a tizzy about?

I don't think I'm the one getting in a tizzy. The option to share with a stranger will go in 6 months- it is not popular anyway yet this thread reads as if 1000s of women are desperate to use it and being thwarted by hordes of trans people.

Lass I am not sure what your point is here.

I am not a 16 yo about to travel on this train. It is an example.

16 or over can travel, and according to this, one who is going in a same sex berth could be bunked in with a man.

I am really not sure what you're getting in a tizzy about?

Use a 16yo in my example then, which works equally well

Would you really be happy about a 16 year old being in the tiny locked cabinet that is a Caledonian Sleeper alone with a complete stranger? Would a 16 year old even want to be?

Young people travel by themselves all the time including long haul flights etc. so I imagined they would be allowed to!

On a plane they are surrounded by all the other passengers - not shut in a tiny lockable cubicle.

This thread is getting terribly heated up for something which will (a) cease to be an option at all in October 2018 and (b) has been increasingly unpopular for some time.

Use a 16yo in my example then, which works equally well.

Oh that's good, I'm very surprised though.

Young people travel by themselves all the time including long haul flights etc. so I imagined they would be allowed to!

So - TW / gender fluid feels like a woman today person rocks up for their women's sleeper berth. They are in with a 15yo girl - because yes why not? I'm sure lone teens use these services for various reasons

Under 16s cannot travel in the Caledonian sleeper unaccompanied. You can't even book the cabin for solo occupancy for them. Would you really even think of booking a 15 year old to share with an unknown adult?

Sorry "little girls" are kinky.

And top shop man "dresses up" as 15 yo girls and pouts for the camera ie his idea of "female" is very young and highly sexualised.

AND she would be lambasted for being unprepared to share with a man who IDd as a woman that day and compared to a racist who wouldn't share with a non white person.

THAT is what would happen.

How do we feel about younger travellers being shut in with the top shop man, whose mate believes underage girls are "kinky". That is the reality here - these are the type of people who are pushing the boundaries.

I think that there are plenty of TRAs about who are engaging with single sex services in order to see what happens, kicking up a fuss if they are not accommodated how they want, and in the current climate companies fold very quickly.

This is the topshop thing >> a man who is not a TW but "gender fluid" wanted to use the girls fitting rooms. They said no. He kicked off. They said yes, anyone can use whichever they choose, teenage girls in underwear and flimsy gappy curtains and all.

In this rail thing it's one protected characteristic against another. One has to "win". On top of this it's men v women, and men win, as this is how society is set up. I have never seen an example of a transman doing this sort of thing - has anyone else?

So - TW / gender fluid feels like a woman today person rocks up for their women's sleeper berth. They are in with a 15yo girl - because yes why not? I'm sure lone teens use these services for various reasons.

Actually in this case, the teen girl would probably be polite and uncomfortable and not say anything as that's the way we're socialised, and it is very hard to speak up when you're young.

OK so scrub that one, it's an older women who goes and complains to staff. What do they do? Sleeper trains are often full. They need to choose. Does someone need to get off? Who? My guess it would be the complainant ie the woman.

That's how I'd see it playing out IRL.

Unfortunately that's what ScotRail /Cal Sleeper website also says.

They will spring any surprise on you when you board and then it's too late.

www.sleeper.scot/on-board/accommodation

Loads of countries have sleeper berths in trains, it's not a "first world luxury". I went on a sleeper train in Europe last summer, they offer single sex or mixed berths

This made me check my country's sleeper trains and phew, they just say male or female cabins, no mention of how anyone identifies.

Two points Allington:

1. Your Muslim colleague would be totally happy sharing a bedspace with a man? Does she also assert that all her Muslim fellow women would be happy to share a space like that with a man? She may be OK with it, I can guarantee you that the majority of Muslim women would not be.

1. You say that they sleepers are a luxury and seats are available. But actually, your Muslim colleague or her fellow Muslim sisters could well be legally disadvantaged if the only safe or acceptable way for her to travel if she didnt want to share with a man was to forgo the cabin and take a lower, less comfortable transport mode. thats what legally disadvantaged IS it’s worse outcomes due to protected characteristics.

Imagine a first class and a third class carriage. The first is luxurious, the third is very uncomfortable. In the first cabin is an exhibition of ku klux klan memorabilia and several VERY vocal supporters, armed and no guard. A black passenger embarks. Where does he sit? Technically he can sit in first. Can his safety be assured in first? No. So he is forced to sit in third. He is disadvantaged on the basis of a protected characteristic - his race.

Our Muslim woman is disadvantaged on the basis of her religion by being forced to either share with a man or choose a lower level of service

Can you not understand how this disadvantages people? It’s denying the comfortable accommodation to people with certain characteristics. It’s obvious you e never used the Caly Sleeper - you would not be as fit for an important work meeting after a night in the seats.