Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

Given that trans people are a small part of the population, the fairest thing might be to let any trans person have a single compartment (at the standard, not first class price) if they are uncomfortable sharing with someone of their biological sex.

Privacy and dignity for women costs extra but men who identify as women should only pay the standard price in the name of fairness, of course.

I have to say the assumption of good faith by transgender people seems to be a big sticking point, and until recently was quietly accepted.

Yes. Self ID is a game changer, and no few transwomen on MN have explained it affects them as much as women.

Of course a transwoman probably would prefer not to share with a male, and shouldn't have to. It's equally not the responsibility of women to surrender boundaries to make everyone else's problem go away. The obvious solution is the current legal situation unchanged which gives everyone leeway for case by case, common sense, and what works in the situation at hand, or if anyone can self ID no debate then there will need to be men's, women's and gender neutral facilities provided. Or an end to sharing as an option.

what if a trans person genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with a man, a strange man at that? Demand their own berth, or hope another trans woman is on the same journey?

Yes, I think this would be difficult for any trans person who didn't want to go through an awkward discussion with the person sharing his/her berth. Given that trans people are a small part of the population, the fairest thing might be to let any trans person have a single compartment (at the standard, not first class price) if they are uncomfortable sharing with someone of their biological sex. Yes, a few people might try it on, to blag a private compartment, but at least no one's safety or dignity would be at risk.

I'm totally opposed to women having to share with men, however they identify, but it's also important to find a way for trans people to use the service. Rupert Soames' suggestion of women having to tell the guard if they're unhappy sharing with a TW would be awful for everyone - the woman, the guard and the TW.

Are there any other mental illnesses that insist they have a "right to exist"? Because that is the argument they are making. That their identity delusions be treated with affirmation, and not the way all other delusional disorders are treated.

I don't know how you could identify a 'genuine' trans woman but being trans does not make you any more or less likely to commit crime than non trans who are the same sex

I think that argument held up fairly well until we found out that half the males who identify as women who are currently incarcerated are there for sex crimes. So, yanno, maybe the perps are different in the UK, eh?

Exactly, it's unbelievable. There is no evidence that feminists want to "exterminate" transpeople, so directing violence at anyone is just bonkers.

If you were very stupid, or malevolent, or both, you could take the statement "since gender isn't real and there is no such thing as a ladybrain or a lady soul in a man's body, nobody is actually transgender" and wilfully misinterpret it as meaning "trans people shouldn't exist and should be killed".

This is beyond a fucking joke. Having to share a berth on a sleeper is grim enough without thinking you might be in a locked compartment with a strange man.

I have to say the assumption of good faith by transgender people seems to be a big sticking point, and until recently was quietly accepted. Same premise used by Swim England, under review. Girlguides, under review. Now sleeper trains, who knows. In saying that, what if a trans person genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with a man, a strange man at that? Demand their own berth, or hope another trans woman is on the same journey?

I use the sleeper a couple of times a year. I can now afford to pay for a cabin alone as I'm usually visiting my dad for the weekend. As a student I twice shared a cabin though. They are very small though and age 18 sharing one with a stranger who was obviously male would have horrified and frightened me. Sharing rooms with strangers should always be same sex.

Practical solution? To offer single accommodation like they for first class sleeper passengers at no further cost for people who are concerned at sharing a cabin due to self id or who are from a protected category. Goodbye business case.

The comments from most men on the DM page show exactly why women need our own spaces/ compartment/ toilets etc. Most have read where the article states there are men only compartment....

In India when you book trains, you are asked your sex M or F not what you identify as. And generally try to put you in seats/ berths with the same sex, knowing full well that protection is needed for women and girls. Often men will exchange their seat as they recognise this problem exists . Just a sensible precaution.

Single person cubicles does sound like the best, if more expensive, solution.

We can't assume that all transwomen are like the totally reasonable transwomen who post so eloquently here. That isn't their fault, it is the fault of the shouty, aggressive TRAs. They are turning women like me into the Feminazi's they accuse us of being. I can't help that. It is a fear based response, fight or flight, based on the perfectly logical fear that one of those TRAs will (again) commit the violence they so often shout, tweet and post about.

Sadly though, I suspect that this will just be a very good stick with which to beat us, as there is no way of explaining what we mean without sounding a tad hysterical (don't you just love that word?).

Sorry OldCrone, I missed your posts.

Exactly, it's unbelievable. There is no evidence that feminists want to "exterminate" transpeople, so directing violence at anyone is just bonkers.

I can't find a link to the article by itself, though, it seems to be sort of a side issue which is strange

Maryz
Did you read that article? I mentioned it earlier in the thread. Quote from Sophia Botha: Considering Terfs want to exterminate all trans women from the planet any violence directed at Terfs by trans women or trans allies is very much a means of self-defence.'

Is it right that someone can say something like that and the newspaper prints it without comment? Is that not incitement to violence against feminists? And when has any feminist said anything about exterminating transwomen?

And that is another problem again Lass.
The person in that image would present as male until you see inside their pants.
So shall we split everything as women with vaginas, men with penises women with penises and men with vaginas.
What will the pictures on the door look like?

I wouldn’t like to share with any stranger to be fair.

On the upside, has anyone noticed the other article on that page?

"Sophia Botha, a transsexual man who identifies as a woman"

Are the DM now calling "transwomen" "men who identify as women"? If so, that's great.

Of course it could be said that the obvious solution then would be to separate people by if they have a penis or a vagina rather than if they are wearing a skirt or trousers

This person has a vagina.

As far as I can make out when they introduce new rolling stock in October it will be a choice of solo occupancy or double bedded cabins and the cabins will be en suite (which will be a big improvement)

However, Transport Scotland said its consultation had shown sharing was “outdated”, with only around four people per train taking the option

Its spokesperson said: “Only a small number of passengers are prepared to use ‘share with a stranger’.”

From the other side as it were what about young transmen who tick male. Will they feel happy sharing with any man? But then they wouldn’t feel right sharing with a woman either. It really does open up a huge problem really.
If you had a ‘3rd’ space then really you’d need two 3rd spaces. One for trans men and one for trans women.

Of course it could be said that the obvious solution then would be to separate people by if they have a penis or a vagina rather than if they are wearing a skirt or trousers.

I was the person who started this one (name change) and I actually e-mailed twice. Both times I had the same response. Their website says sex; the books no engine asks for gender; e-mails say gender.

The Twitter responses by the sleeper and Rupert Soames are interesting. They just want us to shut up.

This leaflet explains the problems with Self- ID

Self ID isn't law at the moment. Is there anything to stop trans people doing this at the moment?

If a trans person is going to use this service, they are presented with 2 choices if they want to go on the sleeper service.

Neither seem suitable for a trans person under going transition and ticking the alternate option can make the other people in them feel uncomfortable.

If they are providing a service, they can't be seen to be discriminating if they provide a service for male and female passengers that puts their customers in potential danger - the idea of sharing a small cabin with complete stranger makes me feel very vulnerable. I can see why someone would also feel vulnerable sharing with a trans person.

I don't think that a 3rd space would be provided by ScotRail - and I don't know who would use it.

I think that them moving to individual spaces is much better.

I think worth linking again to the petition to:
Consult with women on proposals to enshrine 'gender identity' in law

"The government proposes to amend the law to allow people to self-identify as men or women, and to stop allowing organisations in sensitive situations to exclude people of the opposite birth sex. We call for women to be consulted on how to protect women and girls' rights, safety, privacy and dignity."
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

What practical solution would you ask ScotRail to propose?
I don't think there is an easy solution. As soon as the UK allowed people to change their legal sex, and people started to be accused of bigotry simply for pointing out that someone who claimed to be a woman didn't appear to be one, it was inevitable that we would reach this point.