Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

Because this was a few years ago no one had the idea that I should stay put so as not to offend this guy. My safety was considered first. If I was in that situation now and risked being called a bigot if I wanted to move, well I can see someone who isn't very assertive, cough me, cough, sucking up their discomfort and spending the night awake in a state of anxiety. I'd paid maybe £15 for the room. It doesn't exactly leave you feeling comfortable about complaining.

Yes you articulate the problem very well.

I stayed in a hostel abroad a few years ago where I had booked to stay in a dorm with 6 beds in it. I booked the female only dorm as that's all I felt comfortable using but there was a cock up. After a few nights of sharing with only women, everyone else left. A man was then shown to the dorm to stay.

The staff, who were all in their twenties, were obviously trying to be polite but everyone involved was clearly trying to be cool about it but didn't feel comfortable, probably the man included. I realised I had to swallow my politeness and ask to be moved but the staff said before I even opened my mouth that actually none of them was comfortable with me sleeping alone with him. He seemed perfectly polite and nice but honestly I couldn't have fallen asleep with him there. He was at least thirty years older than me and Indian, which might well have been completely irrelevent - I know there are nice Indian men out there. But equally some have the idea that Western women are easy and it might have had an impact in what he attempted that night. I got moved to a private room alone.

Because this was a few years ago no one had the idea that I should stay put so as not to offend this guy. My safety was considered first. If I was in that situation now and risked being called a bigot if I wanted to move, well I can see someone who isn't very assertive, cough me, cough, sucking up their discomfort and spending the night awake in a state of anxiety. I'd paid maybe £15 for the room. It doesn't exactly leave you feeling comfortable about complaining.

Transactivists still quote a couple of incidents that happened in the 70s. That's how often it happens.

The only people killing transwomen are other men, not gender critical females.

Yes, exactly. I’d be intrigued to see the rates of violent crime committed by women against trans women. I’d put serious money on it being in the minimal to non existent range.
And yet feminists can die in a fire (Jesus that phrase, it just marks out anyone who uses it as a petulant snowflake, its and instant ‘idiot’ marker.)

This is a male violence issue - direct the ire at the men who you say are harming you.

If TERFs are so violent, maybe you don’t want to be in our spaces at all? No? Just the men you’re avoiding Sophia? Righto

Doin "I opened the door to a 'man' (yes, he WAS a man) who was a good six foot four, full face of make-up, massive boobs, wild hair, gigantic hands and feet - clearly very much still male but on that journey. LOVELY to deal with but would I want to share a train compartment with him or get changed in a swimming baths in the same area as him or walk into my gym changing room and get changed next to him and see him getting changed - NO I bloody wouldn't! And would I want say my 6 year old DD to be exposed to that? No!"

My issue with him is I'd just think he was a man with a penis.

The Sophia thing - it's good news in that if Sophia is ranting, some people have actually sense after that article?

Wow that tweet from the delightful 'Sophia' is utterly vile. Talking about 'choke' - utterly abhorrent rhetoric.

The way these TAs behave, their aggressiveness level, the bullying and threatening nature of their dialogue, well it's just so, so MALE isn't it!!!

If you really felt like a woman and identified as a woman, wouldn't you want to be intrinsically supportive of women - the very thing you're wanting to be - or am I missing something?! If I'm not, they certainly are.

The reactions on the DM to the sleep cabins article demonstrate a general level of stupidity and dumbness on the whole. Are men (those who do and those who don't identify as women) really THAT stupid that they don't understand that most violent crimes are male person on female person - duh, that's why women are worried.

There IS no way to determine where on their gender transition journey someone is and whether they do or do not have mental health issues related to that and whilst the number of people at this end of the scale will proportionally be small, just the sheer fact of not wanting to share a space with someone who at that point will in effect be a man in a dress that probably still has a penis, is something I can understand a woman not wanting to have to partake in.

I had a grocery delivery a few weeks ago (and let me say, from the outset I'm totally pro someone taking steps to reflect how they identify gender-wise - fully supportive of it - the idea that wanting some controls mean you hate all trans people is rubbish - I don't!) and I opened the door to a 'man' (yes, he WAS a man) who was a good six foot four, full face of make-up, massive boobs, wild hair, gigantic hands and feet - clearly very much still male but on that journey. LOVELY to deal with but would I want to share a train compartment with him or get changed in a swimming baths in the same area as him or walk into my gym changing room and get changed next to him and see him getting changed - NO I bloody wouldn't! And would I want say my 6 year old DD to be exposed to that? No!

Not sure if anyone saw the recent documentaries about rape (male on female and male on male). VERY good programmes and the stories the women told highlight the different factors that were there in their rapes. One was the very situation of being asleep and then waking up to find you were being raped, well, that rings alarm bells with this sleeper issue and the woman in the documentary who'd been raped whilst being asleep had actually been in a situation she thought was completely safe - safer than being in a sleeper carriage with an unknown possibly-male) - anyone not willing to accept that these risks exist is deluded and joining in on making the world yet more unsafe for women.

I mean, we've got women and children in places like Switzerland unable to go about their normal business without the strong threat of being raped or sexually abused due to 'refugees' who have no respect for women or children, some of whom have got into those countries this time not by saying 'oh we identify as women' but by pretending to be young boys not adult males! It's just more of the same - using dishonesty as a cloak under which you can commit crimes on women. And going by the vile nature of the TAs verbalisations, the very thing they purport to want to be, is the thing they want to rip apart, destroy, dominate, and subjugate.

I don’t understand all this “terfs want to exterminate transwomen” guff rhetoric at all. 🤨

I don’t believe that men who think they’re women are women. I don’t want them dead. I don’t want them harmed. I’ve yet to see anyone express such a view.

I’ve seen plenty of “die in a burny fire, #terfscum” frothing from transactivists on social media though.

The only people killing transwomen are other men, not gender critical females.

None of it makes sense.

The EA allows segregation of sleeping facilities by sex. It would not allow a group with protected characteristics to be disadvantaged - in this case by forcing trans people either to pay more to go First Class or travel in the less comfortable seated area.

This kind of thing needs to go to court. They are not being discriminated against. This is communal accommodation and it is right and proper for these spaces to be single sex. Your solution wouldn't work on a fully booked train. I don't like these informal workarounds like giving TIMs private rooms in hospital. They're fine when that's available as a solution but you can't rely on it. What happens then? Women need sex segregated spaces protected and we need to keep highlighting and fighting until law and policy makers listen to us. And yes we may face losses before then.

Sophia hasn't taken the Daily Mail feature very well.....

Corbyn's fanbase are none too happy about engaging gender criticals in reasoned debate, apparently......

From October it will only be possible to book single occupancy or as a couple. An example of pricing is an ensuite cabin is £295 if booked for one person or £360 for a couple; without the ensuite it is £200 for solo occupancy or £245 for a couple

At least Dick Turpin wore a mask. 😷

That is some price hike.

Apparently on average only 4 people on any sleeper train chose the share with a stranger option.

From October it will only be possible to book single occupancy or as a couple. An example of pricing is an ensuite cabin is £295 if booked for one person or £360 for a couple; without the ensuite it is £200 for solo occupancy or £245 for a couple.

just read comments

the TRAs have all joined DM to comment haven't they.

but being trans does not make you any more or less likely to commit crime than non trans who are the same sex

Exactly. The levels and patterns of sexual violence from trans women is identical to that of the general male population according to research.
So they pose the same risk as men
So they should not be in sex segregated sleeping cabins.

ScotsRail leave themselves open to legal action on safety grounds by allowing this. That’s the only way to get through to them on this - guys you’re going to sued.

I believe from reading the article there were also carriages for people without a preference for sharing with the same sex. That would be another good solution for trans people who are travelling

There is no such option, at least at present. And I would be amazed if it were introduced - they would be too worried about a woman being assaulted. And yes, I do see the irony

None of you has come up with an alternative solution that will be lawful, or that would protect women from having to share with a TM whom they believe to be male. The EA allows segregation of sleeping facilities by sex. It would not allow a group with protected characteristics to be disadvantaged - in this case by forcing trans people either to pay more to go First Class or travel in the less comfortable seated area.

If you enforce sharing by biological sex in this scenario, you get:

1. women frightened because they think they are sharing with a man (Transmen who 'pass')

2. Men from cultures that don't allow mixing of the sexes potentially unable to use their compartment if they are asked to share with a transwoman

3. everybody feeling embarrassed and awkward.

No, it's not entirely fair if a trans person gets more space than someone else. But the whole arrangement of different classes of train travel is unfair - do you lot all get enraged because some people have more money than others and can travel first class all the time?

In any case, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with another option that is lawful and that stands any chance of being adopted by Scots Rail. Yes, it was all a lot easier before the trans movement, but trans people are here to stay. If we want businesses to keep women safe and not expect us to share facilities with TW, we have to make demands that are lawful and implementable - otherwise we're just making it easy for them to ignore us.

It's a shame, because I think a lot of people used that service. I suspect this was possibly a factor in the reason they are abolishing them, or at least a plausible justification.

Iirc the article says the sharing berths are being phased out this year so it will sort itself out.
I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing if I was travelling alone on a sleeper anyway

Article about this in today's Times. Mentions MN

I believe from reading the article there were also carriages for people without a preference for sharing with the same sex. That would be another good solution for trans people who are travelling.

And yes, that's the ideal solution.

What if a man genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with another man?" Then he can buy a single berth just like women who feel uncomfortable sharing with other women.

Agree. Single sex spaces should be respected.

If you were very stupid, or malevolent, or both, you could take the statement "since gender isn't real and there is no such thing as a ladybrain or a lady soul in a man's body, nobody is actually transgender" and wilfully misinterpret it as meaning "trans people shouldn't exist and should be killed".

That's word for word exactly what some transactivists do. Remember that many very clearly have psychological issues. I don't accept that these would magically disappear if they suddenly got everything they demanded.

And notwithstanding the biggest elephant of all elephants in the room, which is the need for validation by these vocal trans groups and predators we are worried about. (i.e. not the Mirandas of this world)

They don't want trans facilities. They don't want segregation. They don't want their own berths. They want to go in with the women to prove how extra-womanly they are. In the case of the former, we can suck their lady dicks if we don't like it; and in the latter, well they can get whatever they came for, but its ok because there's an alarm?

Oh well in that case, fine. I'm just going to say I am trans and get my own berth then. Why would I bother saving up for a first class ticket to achieve the same aim? Seriously? Why would anyone, if you can get it for free? (I assume they are not going to request you drop your knickers at the train door to prove it, so...)

This is all aside the fact the CS is routinely fully booked anyway, so where they're going to magic up extra compartments is beyond me, but not my problem.

If you have seen my other posts on MN, you will know that I am highly GC. However I'm thinking of considerate trans people like Miranda. They are likely to find that both men and women are uncomfortable if they try to share the intimate setting of a sleeping compartment with them. What should they do? This applies to trans men as much as trans women- some TM do 'pass', so women will be scared of sharing with them, but it's unsafe for the TM to share with a man.

It seems a lot better for trans people to get the slight advantage of a single compartment, than for everyone to be uncomfortable and potentially at risk. We won't win arguments about this if we can't come up with a workable solution. Scot Rail are never going to introduce a policy that forces trans people to pay more by only travelling First Class - it would breach the EA and probably the HRA.

I'm interested in keeping women safe, not in getting worked up because a trans person might have a bit more space than me. If anyone else can come up with an alternative solution that doesn't break the law, be my guest.

And I'll choose my own language, thanks. Let's leave the policing of women's speech to the TRAs.

"what if a trans person genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with a man, a strange man at that?"

I find in all these cases its best to use clear language and the answer usually becomes immediately obvious. Transwomen are men, so

"What if a man genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with another man?" Then he can buy a single berth just like women who feel uncomfortable sharing with other women.

As for a woman with a masculinized body, if she want to share with other women she simply needs to disclose to her bunk mate that she is a biological female who has had masculinizing surgery. As female she is entitled to use the sex segregated space. She should not have the option to use a male only space.

I believe from reading the article there were also carriages for people without a preference for sharing with the same sex. That would be another good solution for trans people who are travelling.