Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

Hmmmm, living in South Africa at the moment, it is amazing how many people genuinely believe that race is an acceptable reason to segregate. Just as the acceptable norm right now is by sex. And only a few years ago to find you've shared an intimate space with someone of the same sex but different sexual orientation would be horrifying.

I'd be happy to revisit these assumptions in 10-20 years time. I suspect the threat will have turned out to be non-existent, along with the Section 28 prohibition of 'promoting' homosexuality.

But, as I said, no-one has to travel on the Caledonian sleeper (or Trans-Sib railway). In fact, at £100 for a shared sleeper, it's the luxury option. First World Problem - which isn't actually a problem.

What if a racist person would find sharing with someone of a different race offensive and threatening?

As Lass says, this equivalence does not work - we already have spaces segregated by sex, in a way that we do not generally have spaces segregated by race. This is because it is generally recognised that people of opposite sexes may not want to share intimate spaces together for many reasons.

It's why, as a primary school teacher, my year 4 children start getting changed in separate changing rooms. Those changing rooms are segregated by sex, not by the race of the children.

It is not legal to offer facilities which are race or sexual orientation segregated

That of course is not strictly true but there has to be very good reasons for it- train carriages are not definitely not one of them.

You are being silly Allington. It is legal in the UK to offer facilities which are sex segregated. It is not legal to offer facilities which are race or sexual orientation segregated.

The NHS does , I understand, not refuse to treat a patient who is racist or homophobic (assuming they do not express their views in a threatening or aggressive way) because they primarily have a duty to their patients.

Rail companies are entitled and indeed would be bound to refuse to accede to a passenger asking for segregation on those grounds.

Newsflash! Women don’t find other women (lesbians) threatening.

What if a racist person would find sharing with someone of a different race offensive and threatening?

Could a woman (by birth and identification) demand not to share with a lesbian because she would find it threatening? Could a gay man legitimately demand that the man they share with is proven not to be homophobic (and therefore a potential threat)?

It's OK for you to not want to share with a strange man, but someone else doesn't have that right? Because what the rail company are saying is that they don't accept anyone booking a 2 berth cabin then laying down who the second person is.

To be clear that is London/Edinburgh prices.

How come others have the right to a non-male space but females don't?

Yes, I was wondering this too?

That if you don't want to travel on the Caledonian sleeper, given their policies then don't. Or any other entirely discretionary travel

The option only exists for another 6 months. I know there are posters on here who have said they did share and would be happy to share with a strange women but that is not borne out by what Scotrail says the use is. Of the people I know who use/used it the only person I knew who was happy to do so was one man.

The current price for a single occupancy or shared occupancy if booked a month or so in advance is around £140 to £100. I doubt there are many people of either sex who would not just pay the extra £40 to avoid sharing with anyone.

but your right to a female only space doesn't trump other's rights to a non-male space in an environment

How come others have the right to a non-male space but females don't?

I don't think anyone's feelings should be absolutely pandered to, or anyone should 'just get over it'. I do have a problem with this being made into such a black and white them against us issue. I don't see trans-men/women as enemies. I do see a whole range of people being discriminated against, unsafe in their own skin, and the subject of harassment. Many are born with XX chromosomes, but not all.

The company running the Caledonian Sleeper has made their policy clear. Book a berth or don't, but your right to a female only space doesn't trump other's rights to a non-male space in an environment that is by any standards a luxury.

Just as don't holiday in a country where drinking alcohol/ having unmarried sex is illegal and then complain about the consequences of drinking alcohol / having unmarried sex.

Why do you think women should get over their feelings, but men's should absolutely be pandered to?

And that I just don't believe the vast majority of people transitioning are doing it to invade, bully and threaten

What do you think "transitioning" actually means?

That if you don't want to travel on the Caledonian sleeper, given their policies then don't. Or any other entirely discretionary travel.

Women only spaces are as much a demand as allowing trans-whoever into those spaces. That there are competing rights. And that I just don't believe the vast majority of people transitioning are doing it to invade, bully and threaten. Just as most gay couples, if they dare to display affectionate behaviour to each other in public, are not trying to 'flaunt it', or inveigle others in to the 'homosexual lifestyle'. They're probably just trying to live their lives in a way that makes sense and has integrity to themselves.

The anecdote, by the way, was a case where my fears and perceptions turned out to be my own mindset, not the actions of others.

And that is said as someone who has been the target of sexual violence, before anyone starts with the 'you couldn't possibly understand'...

No I think it was a different one.

Fencing, cross post
I worked in a youth hostel when I was 19. Doesn't sound like they applied any common sense, age irrelevant really.

Eresh do you mean this?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Womyn%27s_Music_Festival

All, that sounds horrendous. I do think we should be okay to travel without being constantly propositioned.

Fencing, tbf, if there was a room available it seems odd that the default wasn't to offer it in the first place. In fact, if it was the kind of hostel where you could drift in, I'd think they'd give him the room and leave the women's dorm for women....because after you moved, what would happen to a woman coming to stay?'

It was odd. Plus I'd been there several nights and he was new. He should have been moved and not me. But I was happy to move just because I was so relieved to not have to share the room with him. The staff were all young so I'm guessing they weren't confident from the get go in sorting out room allocations and speaking up that he needed to be on his own instead of sleeping with one other woman. I didn't see any staff members over the age of about 23ish. Anyway, at least they got there eventually with separating us.

It's good that you had a nice holiday. Failing otherwise to see the point of your anecdote.

If that's too much of a risk for you, don't do it.

So women who don't take the Trans Siberian railway and want female spaces should stay at home? Why is it so very wrong to say no to men?

A few years ago I travelled on the Trans-Siberian rail route. As a single woman, I got what in advance I would have called the worst possible option - in a room of 4 bunks there were 2 young Russian squaddies (I was almost old enough to be their mother) released from the best part of a year on the Russian-Chinese border.

It was great fun - yes, one of them propositioned me several times in the most polite way (speaking minimal English) - but they also made sure I knew when I could get off and on the train again without being left behind, bought local specialities at the stations where we stopped and insisted I share it with them, took 'no' for an answer, and when I finally got off (at Irkutsk) carried my bags for me until I found the guide who came to meet me.

Yes, I'm lucky I didn't have unresolved trauma (was abused by someone I knew as a teenager). But there are all sorts of situations where you might end up travelling in close proximity to a man, trans or otherwise. If that's too much of a risk for you, don't do it.

The Caledonian sleeper is not the only option for travelling that route (in fact, the time I went on it - because I love train journeys - it would have been cheaper to fly).

From what I have read before it was a previously female music festival in the US which became trans inclusive and there were disagreements among feminists about it. I think there was some physical violence aimed at a small group of trans identified males and their female supporters from a small group of radical feminists. I don't really know about it or what exactly happened. While this is obviously wrong, it happened a fairly long time ago and I think it's interesting that transactivists are still citing it rather than giving any evidence of the modern day violence against trans people they are implying happens.

Eresh, what happened in the 70s that TRAs are talking about, please?

Fencing, tbf, if there was a room available it seems odd that the default wasn't to offer it in the first place. In fact, if it was the kind of hostel where you could drift in, I'd think they'd give him the room and leave the women's dorm for women....because after you moved, what would happen to a woman coming to stay?