Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

Why not for guides, hosps, group trips (my FIL goes on trips and shares with same sex, it makes it cheaper, he wouldn't want to share with a woman!), prisons etc and so on

Transgender girls (ie boys) are apparently to be allowed to join Girl Guides, and sleep and change in girls' facilities.

Fundamentally a lot of men don't like women having stuff for themselves Some react by trying to shut it down, some react by wanting "in".

Exactly right and in the comments on any article about female spaces the MRAs saying women shouldn't have them are as numerous as the TRAs to be honest. It's exhausting also having to battle men who don't themselves believe in gender ideology.

Funny isn't it

With things like women's cab firms

First men said they should be shut down because they were "sexist"
Now men have to be able to use them / drive them if they say they are women

Interesting indeed.

Fundamentally a lot of men don't like women having stuff for themselves Some react by trying to shut it down, some react by wanting "in".

Ah yes google tells me that a woman in USA was booted after saying she wouldn't have a TW guest.

Which is great for women who don't want strange men in the house, clearly.

I think they have a gender identity inclusive policy.

AirBNB came up already didn't it? There was something.

Yes. And AirBNB etc.

What about group holidays and all the rest of it?

If the principle is agreed, then it applies to many different services.

What about the ones Betsy mentions?

I also think that referring to trans people as just " trans or would be trans " sounds rude, like talking about "gays".

And no one on FWR is ever rude about trans people. You are correct I should have said trans people or would be trans people. It was posted in a hurry. I still think this thread , in relation to the specific topic of the Caledonian sleeper is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Just wanted to point out the the budget option to share with a stranger may be ending in October for Caledonian Sleeper, but the ferries running from Aberdeen to Shetland by Northlink (also owned by Serco) will continue to operate with this policy too.

As do all overnight ferries to Europe by P&O.

Possibly also the sleeper train from London to Penzance.

That's an awful lot of travel options being curtailed for solo female passengers.

@TheDukesOfHazzard Don't you understand that men don't actually need to do anything illegal - or even deliberate - to make women feel uncomfortable?

I am a sturdy, middle aged woman. Certainly able to hold my ground, but I was on a busy train and felt, then saw, a man just staring at me. Stared and stared and stared, to the extent I felt very uncomfortable and remembered it a couple of years on now. What could I have said that he couldn't have just instantly denied and made me look like a complete nutjob?

And that was just with a look, on a train full of people in broad daylight. I can only imagine the misery of what this could turn into.

So if it's OK for this

Why not for guides, hosps, group trips (my FIL goes on trips and shares with same sex, it makes it cheaper, he wouldn't want to share with a woman!), prisons etc and so on

Either it is reasonable for women to want and to have same sex for certain things, or it isn't.

I must admit I thought that you were on board with the idea of women having same sex sometimes. Or is it just the illogic that you don't like - that they say same sex on site when they mean same "gender"? In which case I understand that too.

Either it's OK or it isn't, type thing.

I also think that these situations will inform / assist with similar services elsewhere / even outside the UK.

So if we say OK to this, then what of other single sex / stranger overnight type stuff?

You said I said that people were going to be threatening women. I did not say that.

15 / 16 much difference? Not really, to my mind.

I also think that referring to trans people as just " trans or would be trans " sounds rude, like talking about "gays".

I don’t think anyone wants to share with a stranger, but people are still doing it and will be until October. Cal Sleeper even temporarily dropped the option earlier this year on the existing trains and a fair few people were annoyed then because it removed the “budget” option.

flights of fantasy as 15 year olds being threatened by trans people

It’s not trans people as such, it’s men who will use this as a loop hole to gain access to vulnerable women and girls. Think that won’t happen?

As I pointed out the Caledonian sleeper does not accept bookings for unaccompanied 15 year olds - so yes the scenario posited was a flight of fantasy.

You have said that you would never share with a stranger of either sex which is your choice but you have to realise it is extreme. Young people can and do travel around, loads of the time, all over the place. I certainly did when I was young, and my friends too!

Straw man. The thread is about the miniscule sleeper cabins on the Caledonian sleeper- which almost nobody wants to share with a stranger regardless of that person's sex - nothing "extreme" about it.
And generally even young people are sharing with a group they know or are in a large group. There will be very few situations where a traveller is sharing a space the size of a broom cupboard with one other unknown person.

The thread then degenerated into all sorts of scenarios, including one which cannot ever happen, of trans or would be trans threatening women.

Most women wouldn't choose to share with a male stranger in a locked compartment would they?

I mean even if he's perfectly fine (which most would be) it's still not something most would be keen on.

I think a big mixed group is different - so a hostel with a group of girls and boys / men and women in.

I stayed on a mixed hosp ward when I was 18 and I was the only woman in there, I felt incredibly uncomfortable. It wasn't a high risk ward so the nurses didn't come around that often. 2 of the men were just staring at me. No-one did anything wrong but still I felt v uncomfortbale.

I'd love to hear the evidence and logic that says a biological male is a woman
I don't expect to though

If I never hear the word "exclusionary" again it will be too soon. It sets my teeth on edge.

Won't work for paedophiles, as PP points out you have to be 16 or over to travel alone in these cabins.

Oh well that’s ok then. Good job no rapist is clever enough to think of this eh.

Yes!