It's a real cis-privilege to...

@katsumoto8 I'm afraid I don;t understand this statement:
I just want to say that trans people have dysphoria and so calling yourself cis isn't the same as calling yourself non-anorexic

After all - what is anorexia if not giant, honking body dysphoria? And we don't get categorised according to not having that condition - so why do we get categorised according to not having sex dysphoria? It makes no sense, when sex dysphoria is viewed objectively (but compassionately) as just another mental disorder that a person might suffer from.

Perhaps you meant to say that not all trans people suffer from body dysphoria? I agree - but in my book that is even less reason to give everybody else a descriptor which takes their lack of the condition into account.

I just think than cis and trans are to different almost between the types of women?
If trans women want to label themselves as trans women, rather than TIMs, then that is fine. But that doesn't mean that the other 'kind of women' need a new label. And putting that label on them against their will is an act of aggression.
It also makes a mockery of the language. After all, if there are now two categories of women 'trans' and 'cis'- and 'woman' as a term is no longer enough by itself - then 'trans women' makes no sense as a term, either. If 'woman' isn't a discrete category, a defined thing - then what exactly are they transitioning to? For 'cis' to work at all, trans women would have to be called 'trans -cis' women, as that is what they want to be. And that is just ridiculous.

It's like using the terms gay and straight
But gay and straight are labels to describe something that you are. Cis is a label to describe what we're not i.e not trans. Plenty of women, myself included, have posted here that we don't identify as cis - and in the world of identity politics, how you identify is literally all that matters. I don't need a word that explains to the world that I don't want to take testosterone, grow a beard and construct a simulacrum of a penis out of my arm skin. My biological descriptor is enough for me - and clear and understandable to everyone else.
But I will not be called Cis gender as I do not identify with the sex role and stereotypes that were assigned to me at birth, and have been forced upon me throughout my life.
Like I said - cissexual makes sense, but is pointless.
cisgender is offensive because gender is the prison which keeps us oppressed - and I don't identify with being trapped in a cage of societies making. And I will not have men, who want to climb into that cage, tell me that I am privileged for having been born in there!

katsumoto8, I have reported the post where you @ me again despite my asking you three times to stop.
Perhaps you are ignorant of the fact that the bold @ added to the name sends an email message to the persons inbox. PLEASE STOP!

Also even if a transgender person has elements similar to the structure of an opposite sex brain, it just means that they are an outlier. Not the opposite sex. It's an ideological belief system. And one many people don't share.

That's intersex. It's not the same thing as gender dysphoria. It is a physical condition, a disorder of sex development and there is no solid evidence that gender dysphoria is anything other than a psychological one. Also as far as I am aware the similarities only appear to exist with homosexual trans identified males, when sexual orientation has been controlled for. Heterosexual males don't show this similarity to women. Plus you can't rule out plasticity. Our brains adapt.

What you are talking about is intersex conditions. Which are nothing to do with transgender.

Katsu, that article actually debunks the ‘science’ you are talking about. Did you read it?

It says that the studies on brains were flawed and too small to count, talks about intersex conditions and then about how gay men in some cultures become a ’third gender’. And also highlights the correlation between trans and autism.

It doesn’t back up your assertions about TW being women. At all.

@Ereshkigal actually when the child is developing there is a gene called the sry gene which is essentially part of the Y chromosome (so normally only present in boys (xy)) but that gene can often be defective which leads to an xy embryo not developing male anatomy and being identified as female at birth and the opposite can happen with xx embryos as occasionally the gene is present in the X chromosome. And actually there is a lot of proof that shows the difference between male and female brains and in studies done with pre hormone trans people their brains have been shown to look more like the gender they identify as rather than the one they were assigned at birth @AssassinatedBeauty @thebewilderness

@AssassinatedBeauty @Ereshkigal @thebewilderness www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/01/how-science-helps-us-understand-gender-identity/ read this article if you want - once you scroll past the initial pictures of trans kids it talks about the science of it

It is not "widely accepted by scientists" that trans identified male people are women at all. It is an ideological worldview founded in post structuralist queer theory and politics. There is conflicting evidence that there is any such thing as a gendered brain, let alone that a male can actually have a "female" one. There is the psychological condition gender dysphoria. There have been some minor similarities in brain structure found between trans identified males and women, but they could potentially be artifacts of hormone usage and neuroplasticity as all the brain studies have been on adults.

That is exactly what you are doing when you use the term for an isomer to describe the female half of the human race.

This. This. This.

would you enjoy being told that your identity is invalid because someone feels differently on the issue of gender than you?
That is exactly what you are doing when you use the term for an isomer to describe the female half of the human race.
It is not possible to change sex. That is a fact. Xs and Ys are all that is on offer. There are zero scientists who claim that humans can change sex.
Stop calling women names and please do not @ me again.

That's exactly what I'm saying katsu

Those who have had surgery to remove their male sexual organs are transwomen. That is different to being a woman.

Those with a penis who grow their hair and wear makeup, who 10 or 20 years ago would have been happy to be called transvestites, are trans identifying males. Or men.

"a notion widely accepted by scientists" - is it? Is it really? Which scientists?

I don't have an identity. Someone could describe me as a man if they like, I wouldn't be upset, and it isn't true.

@EphraimLevi i don't get gender honestly like most of you I believe it's based of very sexist stereotypes but sex is something completely different. Transgender people are widely accepted by scientists and dysphoria is a very real thing.

@thebewilderness trans women are women - that is a notion widely accepted by scientists - would you enjoy being told that your identity is invalid because someone feels differently on the issue of gender than you?

In what way are trans identified males women? Can you answer that without using sexist stereotypes please and thank you.

They aren't. They are male. Women already has a meaning. Adult human female.

katsumoto8, transgender identified males who identify as transwomen are a subset of males. They experience a delusional disorder called dysphoria. Surely you know this much?

@GrooovyLass but that sounds like you're saying trans women aren't women

There is no need for the, frankly offensive, "cis" label to differentiate women from trans women. We already have a term and that term is "women."

@LangCleg yes I see this completely and I feel a similar way

the main use of the word is not to offend

But the effect of the main use of the word is to cause offence to a huge numbers of women. Thus, the decent thing to do is not use it unless you already know that a particular woman thinks of herself that way.

Let's turn it around katsumoto8 - I do not believe gender is anything other than an imposed system of power relationships that disadvantage women in society. Therefore, in my mind, using the preferred pronouns for a trans person is to mis-sex them. But I am aware that they perceive this as misgendering and find it upsetting. So I wouldn't upset a trans person by misgendering them to their face, even though my use of the correct sexed pronouns would be me using them for their main use and not to offend.

Given this, I expect the same courtesy in return.

Do you see what I mean?

I definitely think an organic chemist came up with the Cis/trans gender thing. If you look at cis and trans molecules it helps to understand what they are trying to describe.

www.chemguide.co.uk/basicorg/isomerism/geometric.html

However it's about as necessary a prefix as talking about a cis-cow. A cow is just a female domesticated ox or cattle isn't it.

Some basic questions about sex and gender for progressives

1. Do you believe that being born with the kind of body that has the potential to gestate children – a body with a uterus, ovaries, and a vagina – is of any political significance? Does having that kind of body have any bearing on a person’s likely opportunities and outcomes?

1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have historically been subject to any distinct forms of injustice, oppression, exploitation or discrimination? Have they historically been subordinated to the people with penises and testes?

1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies continue to be subject to any distinct forms of injustice, oppression, exploitation or discrimination?

1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies often suffer physical and sexual violence, abuse and harassment perpetrated by the people with penises and testes?

1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies ought to have a label with which to define themselves? Does our language need a word to refer to the people with uteruses and ovaries?

1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have a right to organise politically around their shared experiences, and to campaign and work for policies to secure their own interests?

1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have a right to associate freely with other people with those kinds of bodies, and to have some separate spaces for their safety, privacy and dignity? Do people with those kinds of bodies have a right to some spaces where people with penises and testes are not permitted to enter?

1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies sometimes have a right to policies and resources designated towards rectifying their historical and continued marginalisation and oppression?

If your answer to any of these questions is “yes”, you should reject the ideology of gender identity, and policy proposals based on that ideology such as the self-declaration of legal gender.

@Voice0fReason I agree with that 100%