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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lawyers this way! What realistic reforms could we make to rape laws?

183 replies

HairyBallTheorem · 31/03/2018 18:10

Thinking of this as a brainstorming thread and also a "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" thread. By the latter I mean I don't favour removing the legal concept of the presumption of innocence because I think that's way too dangerous to do if you want a free society.

But we desperately need some sort of reform of rape laws because at the moment too many rapists are walking out of court with not guilty verdicts (thinking here of a whole range of cases).

So a couple of thoughts have occurred to me which I'd like to explore (others may want to add more ideas)

First - the move by Iceland to affirmative consent. The man needs a yes, not the absence of a no. Now I thought that was actually already in place in the UK - there's no such thing as presumed consent. However the problem is the court system doesn't apply it, and indeed I'm not sure how it could. I've heard people on here talk about asking the defendant why he thought he had consent, but since defendants aren't required to take the stand I'm not sure how this could be enforced? Could it form part of the prosecution's case? "The complainant has told us she didn't give consent, and since the defendant hasn't given evidence we have no idea as to why he might have come to the erroneous conclusion that he had consent.."

Second - someone mentioned the Spanner case on another thread (where a group of men practising consensual BDSM were convicted of assault on the grounds that actual bodily harm (I think it was ABH) remains a crime even if the victim consents. Could one apply this to rape? Any ABH carried out during sex would be a crime? (And a strict liability crime, if I've got the terminology right - i.e. one that simply depends on the actions carried out, not the intent of the perpetrator). In this case, any woman presenting to the police with bruises, laceration, bleeding as a result of sex could lead to the man being charged both with rape and with causing ABH during sex, with his beliefs about consent not having any bearing on the latter charge.

(I know a minority of women claim to genuinely like rough sex - and they'd still be able to do it, but by God it would make their partners a hell of a lot more careful about getting consent - no more strangling a woman on the first date just cos you've seen it in a porn film and assume she won't complain.)

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Graphista · 02/04/2018 11:37

Those are comments I've read made by U.K. Judges in the last few years.

sawdustformypony · 02/04/2018 11:32

Sawdust - then why are judges getting away with eg saying women shouldn't get drunk, wear short skirts etc? Never mind a mistrial - who is in charge of disciplining judges and WHY aren't they doing their job properly?

I don't know that they make such comments when summing up for the jury - at least not in a generation or so. Here is a link of remarks made by a soon-to-be-retiring judge during (I think it must then be) sentencing hearing and by then the jury will have been discharged.

I think the Lord Chancellor's office is responsible for discipling judges.

In which case do you think a judge has erred ?

HairyBallTheorem · 02/04/2018 09:42

Agree, TheVery - Brilliant's supposed counter-example is in fact a clear cut example of rape, and the whole of Brilliant's post is an example of rape myths in action, the sort of rape myths that make prosecuting rape so hard to do.

Brilliant - if a man admits to sticking his penis into a sleeping woman, he has admitted to rape - because any reasonable person would know that a sleeping person cannot consent. Therefore the defendant does not have a reasonable belief in her consent.

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HairyBallTheorem · 02/04/2018 09:38

Okay, that got long, so I'll do a separate post on shifting the burden of proof. I said in my OP that I didn't favour doing away with the principle of "innocent until found guilty" and the concomitant view about burden of proof - that the state has to make its case, rather than the defence prove that it's unfounded. That's because there's a bigger picture at stake here than just rape trials (horrendous as the low rate of conviction in those is).

Here's why I'm against it - although it might help redress the balance for rape trials, it would be too dangerous as a principle in law because of the risk of it being misused in other circumstances.

Authoritarian governments don't have to use directly political laws to imprison their opponents. It's not hard to construct a legal system in which the state can put its opponents away for relatively minor crimes, and fit them up for those minor crimes. The presumption of innocence is one of the fundamental principles that protect us against that sort of authoritarian abuse of legal powers (along with not being required to testify in your own defence, habeus corpus, the right to free speech...)

When you look at authoritarian regimes world wide, and their behaviour, I personally think this is too important a principle to give up. Remember, getting rid of it can be used against women. For instance, there are parts of South and Central America (Costa Rica, Nicaragua) where laws against abortion are so draconian that the burden of proof is on the woman to show that she suffered a miscarriage rather than had an abortion - and medically, this is often impossible to prove, so women get sent to prison for miscarriages. Leaving aside the issue of the legality of abortion, it is clearly a horrendous breach of civil liberties to have a situation where the onus of proof is on the woman to prove she didn't take mifepristone (impossible to do - how do you prove you didn't do this, if you don't have witnesses to your life 24/7), rather than on the state to prove that she did.

And remember there are politicians in Trump's America who would clearly like America to go down this path - so far their efforts are being thwarted by the US constitution. But we in the UK don't have a written constitution, which is why we have to think incredibly carefully about unintended constitutional consequences of what look like sensible changes to the law, changes proposed with the best of intentions.

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TheVeryThing · 02/04/2018 09:21

TheBrilliantMistake what the fuck are you talking about? Are you seriously presenting that scenario of penetrating a sleeping woman as some kind of grey area and something that happens commonly?
That is rape, no question. Consent for one sexual act does not mean consent for any future sexual act.
Also, the idea that a woman might think she has been raped but she hasn’t??
Women know whether they have consented to sex or not, if they have not then it is rape, irrespective of what can be proven in court or what the man’s perception of events is.
You have expressed some pretty appalling views on here and are a clear example of male sexual entitlement.

HairyBallTheorem · 02/04/2018 09:15

So much interesting stuff on this thread! And yes, I sometimes wonder why prosecution barristers seem to do such a weak job of picking apart inconsistencies in the defence story, bastardginger.

I've posted a lot on Lisak's work on here too, Placebo. It always interests me (as a scientist) when two different methodologies arrive at ball-park the same number. In this case, one methodology (asking women) gives you a figure of 25% of women say they've been raped or seriously sexually assaulted. Another methodology (asking men) arrives at 6% of men, with an average of 6 repeat offences, have committed rape. So 36 rapes per 100 men... maybe 35 per 100 women on the receiving end. Allowing for some women who are victims of repeat rapes, that gives you round about the 25% figure you get from asking women directly whether they've been the victim of rape.

The other thing mentioned a few posts back was whether education would work given many men may not know they're rapists, just think the behaviour is "normal sex" (with rape classified in the minds of such men as "some other bloke, dressed all in black, who pulls a knife on a complete stranger down a dark alley - I've never done that...")

In fact, Lisak's work shows that isn't true either. He carries out two sorts of survey. One carefully avoids the word "rape" but uses descriptions of actions that meet the legal standard of rape: "Have you ever had sex with a woman who's said no, but you've used your body weight to hold her down until she stops objecting?" About 6% of men answer "yes" to questions like that. The other sort of survey Lisak uses actually includes the word "rape" and 5% of men, it turns out, will directly admit to carrying out rape.

So the "he had no clue that what he was doing was rape" cohort of rapists is a minority - 1 in 6 of rapists. The rest know exactly what they're doing, they just don't care and don't think they'll get caught, and if they do get caught, know that if they throw enough money at a good defence lawyer, they'll get off.

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BastardGingerCat · 02/04/2018 08:54

Not a lawyer but in this case there was a lot said about where the prosecution failed to challenge really obvious lies and contradictions from the defendants (such as saying they stopped kissing when she realised he didn't know her name and then apparently she consented to sex straight after).

Would it be possible for the victim to have her own legal representation as well as the state prosecution? There just seems to be a massive imbalance in defendants being able to go for the best lawyers money can buy and victims being stuck with overworked, underpaid state prosecutors.

Quimby · 02/04/2018 08:06

“I'd LOVE someone to explain to me why defendants AREN'T required to take the stand? ”

Because the burden of proof is on the state.
Accused people enjoy the presumption of innocence and aren’t required to open their mouth because it’s for the prosecution to satisfactorily prove their guilt, the burden is not on them to prove their innocence or satisfactorily deny their guilt.

In the simplest of terms they don’t have to take the stand because if you want to accuse a person of something then the onus is on you to prove they did it.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 07:39

This is off topic and relates to child sex offenders - an in-depth analysis from Australia - makes for hard but interesting reading aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi429

It seems like the figures I quoted above have been revised downwards for the "average offender"

Re rape 18% of women in US have experienced rape (15%) or attempted rape (3%) according to www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence.
And assuming the true extent is much larger, and most rapists aren't serial, then I still come back to a much larger % of men commit rape than is commonly understood.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 07:11

@Placebogirl

That article is really interesting. The "few bad apples" myth is perpetrated time and time again. And as that article notes, the facts are likely to be more nuanced but men lie all the time so why aren't they doing a study of women and asking them how many have been raped and extrapolating that back to the male population? This is where the research world often reinforces the male view of a few bad apples.

I know from Anna Salters books on sex offending that reliable stats are notoriously difficult to obtain because sex offenders lie. Plus presumably also some rapists will believe they hadn't raped but were entitled to do what they did.

The only reliable stats according to Salter were obtained when the convicted sex offenders in jail were guaranteed immunity from further prosecution and their details stored offshore to ensure law enforcement couldn't get to them. Then it was revealed that each pedophile averaged 350 victims and a total of around 4000 crimes!!

I found this US report about assessing sex offenders that says that

Sexual victimization is routinely prosecuted, but sex offenders have a high rate of recidivism and are up to 10 times more likely to be re-arrested for another violent sexual assault than individuals convicted of other crimes www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2993520/

My anecdotal "a third of men" have raped/abused is based on listening to other women, plus looking at the divorce rate and how difficult it is to find a second non-abusive partner. Rape and DV is much more widespread that any research really indicates - especially when many women may take years to come to the realisation they had been raped and abused.

Placebogirl · 02/04/2018 06:44

The literature suggests that something between 6 and 10% of men are rapists. That explains the high levels of rape apologia among other men, to my mind; the 6-10% normalise it. Fucking scary at an academic conference in a male dominated field, though....

fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-most-campus-rapes-arent-committed-by-serial-rapists/

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 04:54

Yep the incongruence between what they say and what they do is the cause of CD - and they rationalise their own hypocrisy by blaming the victim

And their unwillingness to consider they are at fault is breathtaking

The problem is, I am now observing, that the percentage of men who fall into this category is far, far greater than many want to accept - probably even me - I think I'm still in shock - I'm thinking around a third. Have you thoughts on this?

Graphista · 02/04/2018 04:45

I think it's very often the case with men who would never consider themselves even sexist let alone potential rapists - yet if you dig deeper...

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 04:40

@Graphista - yep very familiar with it - why do you ask?

Graphista · 02/04/2018 04:02

Womanformally - have you heard of cognitive dissonance ?

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 03:55

Yep re debunking rape myths - any increase in awareness would be good.

However… I have observed that even if guys (and it normally is guys that perpetuate these myths) say they don't support rape - their unconscious bias does. What I find really curious is that incongruence - they say the right thing but in the end, vote with their dick and sexual entitlement - I'm really not sure that more awareness is the way to tackle that as it's conditioning - I think it needs moral leadership from men in power - who are the very ones often who perpetrate rape and control of women - so it won't change jury outcomes as long as men are involved - well not for a lifetime at least. Depressing...

Graphista · 02/04/2018 03:39

I agree - and more like them.

I'd also like to see more public info on how victims react during and post rape.

Very few people even know about fight flight or FREEZE let alone tonic immobility, rape trauma syndrome etc

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 03:29

@Graphista

brilliant video - thx for the reminder - this should be mandatory for all kids in school and all adults - repeated weekly - just before the main news...

Graphista · 02/04/2018 03:15

Also not a lawyer

I'd LOVE someone to explain to me why defendants AREN'T required to take the stand? Especially in rape and other violence against the person crimes it should be mandatory, why should a victim have to but not defendant? Doesn't make sense to me at all.

Re in camera - what seriously worries me there is the already appalling attitudes and commentary by judges who seem to me to be the worst offenders when it comes to believing rape myths AND making matters worse by talking to juries in such a way as if these myths are true 😡

I can see absolutely NO reason why what the victim was wearing, their sexual history has ANY relevance whatsoever.

I'm with Hackmum - at the VERY LEAST if the victims previous sexual behaviour is admitted then the defendants must ALSO be admitted for balance. THAT might make defence lawyers think twice about putting victims on trial! I remember that case you're talking about too - there was quite a scandal at the time.

Why are rape trials so heavily weighted AGAINST victims.

Victims real names shouldn't even be mentioned in court. No need.

Sawdust - then why are judges getting away with eg saying women shouldn't get drunk, wear short skirts etc? Never mind a mistrial - who is in charge of disciplining judges and WHY aren't they doing their job properly?

The ched Evans case was a fucking farce as was this latest Irish rugby one - nobody with any sense can reasonably believe they AREN'T guilty.

"They're just not being applied correctly" that's down to judges - serious shake up of the judiciary needed.

Cardsforkittens - I see where you're coming from but honestly look at what judges are SAYING to juries RIGHT BEFORE they start deliberations - and the woefully inadequate sentencing even IF rapists are convicted.

Brilliantmistake the big problem is many lay people still think anything other than stranger leaping out from a bush is not rape. There's a study often quoted on rape threads that was rape was described (but not named) and a high number of male respondents said they would feel comfortable behaving that way.

"The following morning, in a sleepy stupor, the male elects to penetrate the female and does so for a small period of time." That IS and VERY CLEARLY is RAPE do you genuinely not get that?! Consent for one act if intercourse DOES NOT imply consent for future acts.

And it's DEFINITELY not ok to penetrate someone who's UNCONSCIOUS! Wtf!

How many times to people need told?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

"Great posts by Brilliant" couldn't DISAGREE more

"but that male sexual entitlement pervades everywhere - even on here" definitely!

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 02:36

My suggestion of an expert panel assumes public access to the court and their deliberations - not a closed court.

How anyone can say that having sex with someone who's asleep is consensual is beyond me - but that male sexual entitlement pervades everywhere - even on here

And the assertion that a few innocent guys would get jailed if the legal criteria "relaxed" has yet to be proved and sounds like an MRA justification for doing nothing to address the gross failure of the justice system for crimes against women. On balance, given the rape law and process is unfit for purpose for the majority of the population, imo it's a small risk worth taking, as in the rest of the justice system. There's a huge debt owed to women for the deliberate withholding of prosecution of sex offenders plus fair process and law, within and outside of marriage

TwentySmackeroos · 02/04/2018 00:12

Great posts by Brilliant

TheBrilliantMistake · 01/04/2018 20:24

*prove (damn predictive text)

TheBrilliantMistake · 01/04/2018 20:12

If there was an expert panel, the public would still argue that it needs to be more open and that the public need more transparency about how the verdict was reached.

The key problem here is that the verdicts are almost certainly not reflecting the true number of rapes that are occurring - i.e. guilty men are getting off. Sadly we don't know which guilty men are getting off.
They are getting off because it's so technically difficult to prove rape.
If we make it easier to proof (by reducing the burden of proof) we'll probably lock up more genuine rapists, but also more innocent men too. That's a very uncomfortable compromise.

GraceMarks · 01/04/2018 20:01

On the subject of juries, I have to do jury service soon and I'm genuinely dreading it. If I have to sit through a rape case and listen to a woman being trashed and all the usual rape myths being bandied around the deliberation room, I don't think I'll be able to cope with it.

I agree that juries are probably more or less useless in rape cases anyway and personally I'd like to see something more along the lines of an expert panel, as some others have suggested.

TheBrilliantMistake · 01/04/2018 19:44

In theory, law is supposed to be a reflection of the people's will, developed over time. That's not always the case, but it's supposed to be what society commonly believes is fair set of rules.
Once upon a time, a King or Queen would dictate the law and it was held that a King or Queen themselves were 'above the law'. That was eventually abolished to the point where we created the phrase 'nobody is above the law' - not even the Monarchy.

Now we have specific laws for rape, and they are actually quite simple laws in principle, but they are notoriously hard to prosecute.
They are hard to prosecute not because the law specifically favours the male, but because we have a fundamental tenet of innocence until proven guilty, which places a burden of proof on the accuser not the accused. We then have a second issue in that most cases have no independent witnesses, and are often occurring in a situations where both parties are known to each other for a period of time prior (even if a matter of hours) and where the giving of consent isn't always a highly formalised process. Even when consent is given, it may be withdrawn at any time. Furthermore, there is still scope for a mismatch of beliefs where one party believes consent has been given and the other believes it has not, or has been withdrawn.

I will give one typical example (that most of us can envisage) where the issue of consent can be so complex...

A couple meet and agree to have sex, perhaps with their inhibitions diminished by alcohol, but both retaining the capacity to consent.
The couple engage in sex freely.
The following morning, in a sleepy stupor, the male elects to penetrate the female and does so for a small period of time.
The female awakes and no longer shares the desire to have sex with the male, the male accepts her decision, but the female objects to the fact he has already penetrated her and alleges rape.

The male maintains he had reasonable belief that consent was given.
The female believes she only consented to sex the previous night, but not the following morning.

It does not necessarily hold that if a female believes she was raped that she actually was, nor does it hold that if a man is found not guilty that the woman is a liar.
Equally the man may not have intended any harm whatsoever, but may be guilty of rape.

Even if the onus on consent was for the male to prove consent was given, it would not help us much. We still have a situation where a man may say 'she said yes, I asked her, repeated, and she agreed it was ok' and the female says 'That's a lie'. It is so very difficult to ascertain which is telling the truth when the agreement was formed or declined behind closed doors.

Notwithstanding all of that, we know statistically that few women make false allegations. It does happen, but it's relatively rare. However, it is very difficult in criminal law to make a judgment based on statistical likelihood, and even if it were possible, we would then end up with a self-fulling set of statistics where more convictions would further skew the statistics against the male.

The determination of consent is also complex - and this is partly why we end up looking at behaviour prior to the alleged rape.
The defendant who is pleading not guilty will invariably claim consent was given, which will give rise to the question 'How did you ascertain consent?'. He is likely to either say 'I asked and she said yes', or 'we kissed, touched, she agreed to come to my room and allowed me to continue...'
This is going to lead to the court examing the truth of this claim by seeing CCTV of the events leading up to the alleged rape.What choice does the court have in trying to establish how believable the story is?

This is a real paradox - because the law is clear, a woman can engage in whatever sexual behaviour she likes and can say no at ANY time and the man must stop. This is absolutely unambiguous.
However, a defendant is also trying to prove consent was given and usually has no proof of this (as people do not sign a contract). The only available evidence is a general feel for how he came to believe that sex was consenting hence examination of behaviour prior.

I believe THIS last paradox is the biggest problem in rape cases and it's one that there is no simple solution for.

I would like to see previous behaviour ruled out of evidence (but not events leading up to the act), but even this can be quite problematic.

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