Lawyers this way! What realistic reforms could we make to rape laws?

Having read some of the comments on the Huffington Post article today I do believe that one key way to help is to change people's knowledge of the law rather than just their own belief. Schools do some, but how do you reach the older general population? Who still maintain that a woman doesn't have the right to change her mind, she must fight back otherwise it wasn't rape, she was drunk so it doesn't count. Etc

Great find, woman.

This is one sensible proposed measure which could improve the way rape trials are handled:

www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/rape-trials-should-use-prerecorded-crossexaminations-says-new-report-36787586.html

@Ravenheart1 - I came across this today - first I have heard of it.

www.theguardian.com/social-entrepreneurs-solving-problems-around-the-world/2018/apr/04/creating-technology-to-combat-sexual-crime-callistio-skoll-social-entrepreneurship-awards

It must be the collective unconscious!! However this app is not what I envisage as they are reliant on the College taking action against the perpetrator- but presumably because they got a lotta funding they have to stay within the "law" even though it disadvantages women.

I'm looking at creating something where the information can be shared between women

It's a good start though

Chaos Sorry - if I was unclear.

I am stating that hypothetically, a list of defendants in rape/ sexual assault trials could be compiled/ produced because their names would be available (It would be subject to challenges though).

I agree there would not be much value in anonymising this list if the purpose of this is to create a warning/ alarm system for women.

I may have misused the term "harvest" - for which, apologies.

My wider (and I suppose, blindingly obvious) point was that data/ tech is used routinely by companies in many ways - I like the thought of technology being applied creatively here to ameliorate women's lives.

Sorry, could have posted more than just a negative comment. It is all very interesting.

Harvesting data would surely ensure anonymity is established for those accused?

Woman I agree with you about the limitations of Clare's law in relation of past convictions. Also I am no expert and I don't know the answer but I hope that Clare's law scheme also shows evidence of civil penalties such as restraining orders - as I do know a lot of d v victims are actually advised to go down the civil route and not the criminal route. That civil information should also be available to future women.

However it is one example where women's welfare is put above men's reputation/ privacy. So it is possible.

My example of compiling a list of defendants could be actually be started tomorrow - I have heard - anecdotally of tribunal and court lists - which are in the public domain- being used to harvest data about litigants in other areas of law for leads for business development purposes. It feels a bit ambulance-chasing and rather like "sharp practice" but I believe it has been done.

This would have a far nobler aim - protecting women and the public interest. I accept it won't protect women from a stranger in the alley but it will really help create the conditions for change as materialist has described- the need to create social stigma and difficulty for men who carry out these acts.

If big data can be used by every other corporate for their own commercial ends, there must be a way of using it for a genuine social purpose where the law so dismally fails women.

In terms of cluster B, sorry, I don't know what that means... but if it is men who have not been charged.. yes, then that would improve the value of the database/ app enormously if it could be done pragmatically/ legally.

I'm galvanised by this idea woman - its a fab concept and hope you get the funding. Plenty of investors for tech in and around London, though I do not underestimate how difficult it will be.

This is the first post that has made me feel hopeful.

Does it still work with the new GDPR laws? I think this is a really interesting idea for an app but I can think of so many laws that could be thrown at it to get it shut down and the problem with an app is they don't have to legally prove that it's breaking the law - they just have to convince Apple and Google not to host it in the app store.

Around 20-30% of men are Cluster B - mostly undiagnosed. They commit 80% of crimes and harm and kill women and children. And for some insane reason the law protects them more than the women and children. Cluster Bs clog the courts, cause all the injuries, child disputes, etc etc

I've realised I have a way round the legal and data protection issues I think - that's legal - I just have to figure out the last bit - how to share information - that's tricky so may have to be left to individuals - I'll think on it for a while longer. The problem with Clares List is it relies on a previous conviction, and most Cluster Bs never get one - so serially re-offend whether rape, sexual assault, workplace bullying and so on.

I need to raise a bit of money 10k ish and get a proof of concept off the ground - it's desperately needed.

(Just wanting to acknowledge that I am reading and appreciating this thread.)

As part of this brainstorming exercise, if we were sitting at the cabinet table and creating a new feminist society that put women's safety at the heart of policy and law making, I would think about the idea of a register.
Like the sex offenders register, but it would contain a list of every defendant accused of rape and sexual assault which went to trial. You would need a national team of researchers to attend trials to compile this database, if the CPS could not provide the data.

This would have a limited remit as it would not include those men whose case did not go to trial due to attrition rates. But it would capture those cases where the CPS believed there was a reasonable prospect of success.

A tiny percentage of men where cases actually go all the way to trial may be innocent. But the case is in the public domain, and it would simply be an alert for women. If women wish to give those men the benefit of the doubt, then fine.

At the moment the general public only know the identity of men in high profile cases as these are widely reported.

Why are we not using the fact that defendants do not have anonymity to protect women better?

This would be in the public interest and would help prevent these crimes happening in the first place.

Only users with established credentials could have access to the register or app in highly specific circumstances, with some vetting and it would need to be reasonable and proportionate to do so. It could not be used by corporates to prevent people getting access to services (eg health care, mortgages or insurance etc.)

Massive data protection, libel, privacy issues of course plus risk of misuse. And lots of resistance.

But what price women's safety?

woman. I LOVE this idea though it is fraught with difficulty, as you say.

Would a woman be able to put a man's identity on a database after a bad experience? Or only after she had complained to police? (Think the latter may be too high a threshold..). Is it equivalent to the "shitty media men" list that circulated around the States after Weinstein scandal?

I think alot of women know one man that they would warn their friends about.... if this could be scaled up, then at least women would have the information and can decide for themselves if it is safe to continue any encounter/ experience.

This approach has already been introduced for domestic violence (Clare's law).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26488011

I suppose easier for domestic violence as this can be both a civil and a criminal matter. So even if a man has not been convicted, (given the higher burden of proof- beyond all reasonable doubt), history and evidence of non-molestation orders and prohibition orders would be revealed.

Of course, on a night out you might not find out a man's surname , or remember it, or he might lie, or change his name by deed poll...

Any defamation lawyers out there who could comment on how the information could be shared legally? (tall order, I know...)

@Ravenheart1

I've worked out how to do it technically - yes it would be a subscription service / ad driven business model (don't like ads but might have to, at least initially).

Identifying predators is the only way that women have a chance at keeping themselves safe but the men will fight tooth and nail against it - and will probably try and sabotage it/ undermine using any legal process they can get their hands on so I need to think now to stop myself becoming a target like Snowden - any ideas??

Not a lawyer but a few things I would out in place if in charge:

• rather than a jury, rape trials would be help infront of a panel of trained paid representatives who would analyse the evidence; hear the defendant and the victims speak; visit the crime scene if needed and work with the lawyers to come up with appropriate questions to be asked of both in place of a cross examination
• defendant and victim receive anonymity.
• defendant and victim sexual history not shared or assessed.
• previous related crimes are known.
• private courtroom.

Thanks so much materialist for your powerful words and insights.

This is why we cannot simply wring our hands and say it is impossible to change the law in the face of abysmal attrition/ conviction rates.
It really must be possible, even if it is a crime taking place behind closed doors.

And I'm fascinated by the social/ community measures you propose.

woman I want to know more about the measures in respect of notification of perpetrators to other women via technology. Is this really legally possible?? What a great start-up idea. What it be an app? Or a subscription service that women could sign up for, for example if they are dating online etc and concerned about their safety? Or would all women sign up to it as soon as they turned 16?

There are some men who can damage a great many women's lives. They should be ostracised and the opportunities for them to harm other women must be limited.

@TheBrilliantMistake

There are two mutually exclusive assertions in this thread.
1) That the law is as clear as day about what rape is.
2) That judges and juries just aren't understanding it which is resulting in low conviction rates even amongst those cases that make it to court.

I don't agree with your thinking here - no problem is normally single faceted with one solution. It requires approaching from different perspectives - for example if a car starts making a thumping noise and slows down for no apparent reason, there's a number of actions taken by the driver to isolate the fault - consult the dashboard, is there a red light somewhere, if that red light is resolved does that make the original problem go way and so on.

Seems to me there isn't a sufficiently nuanced approach to the issue of what's going wrong with enforcing the law around sexual assault against women and really no male in power is that bothered about it as it doesn't affect them.

Perhaps some informed experimentation needs to take place with different models, after women have been consulted about what works for them, - and then pilot a couple of options and measure the results. Would be interesting to run a case through two different models in parallel and compare the results after smoothing any major differences - there's not enough systems thinking in law nor in many govt funded services imo

I agree with everything @Materialist says and the good news is tech provides the answers now - there's some great new technologies that would allow women to report perpetrators securely, in private, and only be alerted if that same perpetrator was reported by another. It avoids the libel laws and is the way to go - and women will have to fund this themselves….

Thanks all - really good food for thought on this thread

Given the well-publicised horror of what women endure during a rape trial, how likely is it that there is ever, statistically, 1 out of 10 men in the dock who are innocent?

I'd like to know the answer to that too. I remember seeing a Buzzfeed article that explored the probability of a man being falsely accused of rape. Among other things that were more likely (such as being struck by lightning), the article claimed that a man is 33 times more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape. I didn't check the article's stats but it's an interesting idea, and supports the conclusion I'd already come to: if a man is acquitted of rape, he's probably a rapist.

I think this is a really good thread.

Thank you for explaining that. Took time and effort. I can't ever be a woman, I can't know or suffer the same things. I can see what I believe to be injustices, some of which we will agree on, some we won't.
In truth I doubt I can change much, but I can once in a while say to other men "hold on, that's wrong and here's why", and from time to time I'm likely to do or say something that is typically male, possibly mysogynistic, possibly judgemental. I'm human. But I'm working at getting better at it, being a little less male and a little more human that is. I'm always going to be a work in progress. If you can live with that, I'm damn sure I can live with a little criticism 😊

The 1 in 10 was an illustration. It was about the idea of convicting them all in order to spare women. 1 innocent man to spare many innocent women. It was never about actual statistics. 1 sacrifice to spare 2 is the same principle as 1 to spare 100,000. Logically worth it. Ethically worth it, who can say?