Kiri Tunks

Clearly no one is really listening here. No one said a lesbian HAS to be sexually attracted to a trans woman. No one said if you transition to Male that your gay friends would HAVE to find you attractive. But if your genitals was the ONLY factor that they didn’t find attractive, that is transphobic. So for instance if no one knew I was trans and they assumed I was bio Male and they were attracted to me for a number of reasons, then when I revealed my trans status they said oh I don’t like that or oh I’m not attracted to you anymore, that is transphobic. Because up until 2 seconds ago they were attracted to me, now they’re saying my genitals mean I am not a man. That is transphobic

I've just read your update. You poor kid.

I'll bugger off and spare you my thoughts on the daft 'TW are W' mantra.

I myself am ftm attracted to men

That means you are heterosexual.

How old are you, Sawyer, if you don't mind my asking?

Sawyer, I don't understand. You say 'at school I wasn't allowed to use any toilets' - you can't mean that, surely? Did you have to use those of your birth sex, do you mean? I can see that that would be distressing, but if you're a trainee teacher, you know it can't all be about one single child; proportionate response is the key, and putting one child of the opposite sex in there means that every other child has lost their access to a single-sex facility. Or did they point you at the staff loos?

"But if gender is not defined by genitals then it IS transphobic for a lesbian to not want to date a trans woman just because of her genitals. They’re basically saying they’re not a woman"

SEX is defined by genitals. A lesbian is attracted to natal women. She is not heteroSEXual, she is homoSEXual. So a lesbian woman is sexually attracted to other women. A transwoman's sex is male regardless of dangly bits or otherwise. To say that a lesbian woman should not be sexually unattracted to a transwoman with a penis/beard/male pointers is wrong.

Can I declare myself male tomorrow and insist that all my lovely handsome gay friends must suddenly start finding me sexually attractive or they're transphobic?

I am so far down this rabbit hole. . . . . . . . . . . .

But if gender is not defined by genitals then it IS transphobic for a lesbian to not want to date a trans woman just because of her genitals

Sexuality is about sex not gender.

How does that make me heterosexual I’m a trans MAN attracted to MEN. manXman is gay

Your sex is female. Female X male = heterosexual

@sawyer99 you will find the gender critical feminists on here are absolutely supportive of your plan to de-gender the classroom in the main part. We want to de-gender the world! Which will make the whole concept of transgenderism null and void. We believe binary ideas about gender are oppressive. Sex, however, is binary and the difference between male and female bodies will always mean that girls need protection from boys. Hopefully if we can widen the boundaries of masculinity boys will become less of a threat to girls but the threat will never be completely removed.

@itsallgoingtobefine

How does that make me heterosexual I’m a trans MAN attracted to MEN. manXman is gay

But if gender is not defined by genitals then it IS transphobic for a lesbian to not want to date a trans woman just because of her genitals. They’re basically saying they’re not a woman

Can you understand that many rape victims might feel otherwise? Especially if the transwoman still has their male genitalia as many transwomen do?

I personally have no problem sharing a changing room with anyone, male, female, trans, whatever. However, I have enough empathy to understand that other women may not feel the same way, and especially that vulnerable women, or women who have been subjected to male violence, would have issues being vulnerable in the presence of a transwoman with a functioning penis.

I myself am ftm attracted to men

Which makes you heterosexual not gay

And what titchy said^ "transing away the gay" is becoming increasingly popular

Also I don’t know where you’ve got your “statistics” from but they’re wrong. Over the years I have met hundreds and hundreds of trans individuals. Most of them were not ‘females struggling to find acceptance as a lesbian’. In fact the majority of them were gay. I myself am ftm attracted to men

Ok first of all I struggle to see how being transgender is homophobic. I’m gay. So by your understanding I’m homophobic towards myself and others?

Gay / homosexual = attraction to the opposite sex (not gender)

Homosexual females are attracted to other females.

Homosexual males are attracted to males.

A gay TIM would be attracted to males.

A gay TIF would be attracted to females.

A transwoman attracted to women is a heterosexual male.

A transman attracted to men is a heterosexual female.

The homophobia occurs when people say that a lesbian is transphobic if they would not have sex with a transwoman.

@titchy I was a girl who was raped multiple times. But I understand that a tran woman is not Male so the student wouldn’t be sharing with a man, they’d be sharing with another woman

Sawyer if you do just one thing can you look at what Wpuk actually propose and at the transgender trend guidance, then make your own mind up.

I strongly suspect you've just read other people's opinions about this on Twitter, and as a trans person yourself have automatically reacted with outrage, rather than find out for yourself what these organisations say. THEY ARE NOT ANTI-TRANS AT ALL.

(Incidentally you asked about how the trans ideology was anti-gay - it's because most teenage trans are female but they sadly seem to find more acceptance and encouragement as trans boys rather than lesbians - it's that anti-gay stuff we want to eradicate that the trans movement wants to encourage.)

@Sawyer99 I went to one of the WPUK meetings, with some misgivings because I'd heard that they were at best a pretend-civilised front for transphobia and at worst an outright hate group. They absolutely weren't. The speakers I heard didn't say that trans women shouldn't be in women's spaces. They were broadly in favour of the status quo, and expressed reservations that the ever widening trans umbrella meant that people who do not live full-time as women are now able to call themselves women without challenge and access women's spaces and programmes designed to help redress the sex imbalance. Three trans women spoke at the end in support of this contention - one I think is actually a teacher herself.

It couldn't have been much further from an "anti trans hate group" and it's seriously worrying that women expressing an opinion, even an unpopular opinion, are attacked like this.

And this is why a lot of genuine trans people are worried about self-ID - if anyone can claim to be the opposite sex, then it undermines what it means to be a transwoman or transman.

Sawyer - have you come across the "Let Toys Be Toys" campaign? Link here

Essentially it lobbies for an end to "girls toys" and "boys toys", helping to eliminate gender bias from an early age. The kind of stuff that you say you want to see in your classroom

You might be amazed to learn that it is feminists who are behind it, not trans advocates

I can think of half a dozen boys that I was at school with who would have absolutely self-IDed as female to get into the girls' changing room. Not to assault us, but to laugh, belittle and intimidate us.

Not being assaulted is far too low a bar to set for what is acceptable

Sawyer99: "Ok let’s say a man transitions socially, 2 weeks later he starts assaulting people. Then he gets caught a couple of months down the line..."

And by then it's too late, isn't it? He's already carried out the assault.

I think perhaps you haven't understood the proposed legislation on self-ID and why so many women, including Kiri Tunks, are worried about it.

If you were pretending to be trans you most likely aren’t going to keep it up for years and years are you

why would you need to keep it up for years? Self id means you can pretend for half an hour or so, perve at the 12 year old in the Top Shop changing room, then wander out and continue your normal male life as Dave the plumber.

If you're training to be a teacher, and you come across a teenage girl who has been sexually abused, do you really think it appropriate for her, or any other girl, to share a changing room or accommodation on a school trip with a male pupil? I have no doubt that she would be physically safe in all likelihood, but the effect could be devastating to her MH. Do you really not have any empathy for her? Of course trans pupils shouldn't be discriminated against, no-one says they should be, but neither should girls.

Sawyer99
The issue is about self ID, not anti - trans.
I appreciate how this must come over as every concern and question about safety is deemed to be transphobic by a very loud group of transactivists.
For someone working in schools, you must be aware that safeguarding is everyone's priority. Insisting to any child that they must undress in front of the opposite sex because a child now identifies as transgender is teaching children that they have no right to have boundaries or give consent.
The solutions are complex - how to make all children feel safe and their wishes respected. I work in schools with predominantly Muslim intakes. There is no question that a boy identifying as a girl would be allowed to share changing rooms, showers or toilets with girls in most of these schools. So we have to work with everyone to find appropriate and sensitive arrangements that respects all groups.
This is what A Woman's Place are asking for - open and respectful debate - not calling anyone raising issues transphobic and silencing discussion.

Ok let’s say a man transitions socially, 2 weeks later he starts assaulting people. Then he gets caught a couple of months down the line and it’s made harder for him to be in those situations. He’s not going to stick with transitioning because it was never real. He just wanted a cover to be able to get easy access to assaulting women. Maybe it’s harder for you all to understand because of the feelings we as trans people get, wouldn’t be obvious to people who had no experience with it

That doesn't happen in classrooms anyway unless the students decide themselves to have sex based teams.
Seating, never seen tables that aren't mixed. Well until secondary when you sit next to your mate.
Same with school journeys, you pair up with your mate.