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Original poster

Important to remember there are people on BOTH sides of the debate

91 replies

Winewinewinegin · 29/03/2018 09:08

I totally appreciate that people are getting very cross about the way some people are acting.

I also think it is important to remember that there are plenty of very decent and also some very vulnerable and targeted trans-identified individuals in the U.K. And across the world.

We do them, us, humanity and the rational compassionate debate sorely needed in this area NO FAVOURS by making generalisations about trans people that are sparked by irritation at some people's actions and goading.

Let's say what we need to say, but with respect, understanding and consideration for the wider picture.

OP posts:
Popchyk · 29/03/2018 09:39

Wine, what specifically are you objecting to?

Discussions on here have had huge success in getting the message about self-ID out into the mainstream.

3 months ago, most people didn't even know what it was. I have learned loads.

I think we're doing okay on here.

53rdWay · 29/03/2018 09:37

Wine, I don’t think you’re wrong as such, but given MNHQ will already delete posts that are genuinely transphobic I think we’ve already got that covered.

There are of course a lot of vulnerable and decent trans people in the UK, nobody disputes that.

Original poster
Winewinewinegin · 29/03/2018 09:35

I absolutely 100% agree with this:

I think it's important we start / keep saying what we think, before not being allowed to do so becomes normalised.

But I also think certain people have been deliberately stoking our anger and will use this against us in the way the debate is framed and we need to be wary of that. Someone posted something about dealing with narcissists a while ago which is worth a read.

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Original poster
Winewinewinegin · 29/03/2018 09:33

Facts don't have feelings. But people do. If we are going to make a convincing political argument we need to take those into account when lobbying and persuading.

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BarrackerBarmer · 29/03/2018 09:32

" by making generalisations about trans people"

You know what? Every trans person believes that 'female' is a psychological state.

As an actual, biological female, I find the ENTIRE ideology insulting, sexist, false, regressive, unscientific and damaging.
Every trans person, by definition, is perpetuating a false idea about women.
So, whilst a trans person may be 'nice' as a person, their beliefs about sex are about as sexist and damaging as can be, and I do not need to respect their position in regards to this issue and how it pertains to me and all females.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/03/2018 09:31

I don't disagree with you in principle wine, I reported a post yesterday because it was really not ok and mnhq deleted it in about 5 mins flat. But I don't see a problem with people expressing forthright opinions. Part of the reason the debate has become so skewed is because our end of the dialectic started off from a position of euphemism and restraint.

I think it's important we start / keep saying what we think, before not being allowed to do so becomes normalised.

JessicaJonesJacket · 29/03/2018 09:30

I think most women (and men who share our concerns) involved in this debate make a clear distinction between trans activists and transgender people.
The TAs are throwing transgender people under the bus by cutting them off from medical support, counselling, etc. The 'professional' transwomen media commentators are only interested in furthering their own careers.
TAs make death threats, rape threats, calls to diaf, etc. Let's hold them accountable first before we try to police women's language.

SomeRandomBird · 29/03/2018 09:30

100% agree OP. Some of the posts on here have complete lack of compassion and humanity towards our fellow human beings. No wonder feminists are getting a bad name.

Original poster
Winewinewinegin · 29/03/2018 09:30

I think it is so, so important to speak the truth and preserve mumsnet as a safe space to do that. And to create more space too.

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Original poster
Winewinewinegin · 29/03/2018 09:28

Context is what is being retweeted from the site and who to. Have a look at daffodil's posts.

Also context is the wider political understanding of this and how to make a difference.

I am not engaging with TRAs as no point.

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DoroVallens · 29/03/2018 09:25

No.

Most platforms are being censored.
Debate is being shut down in the name of inclusivity.
People are being banned and blocked from websites for speaking the truth.

If you speak the truth anywhere else you're a very ignorant bigoted transphobic bitch.

Fuck that. I'm sick and tired of the thought police.

Facts don't have feelings.

Original poster
Winewinewinegin · 29/03/2018 09:23

LangCleg I am honestly not trying to tone police. I am watching the way the debate is being manipulated - very successfully - at a lot of levels and how this is playing out in the political arena.

I see a lot of parallels between the way some very influential people are manipulating women's voices and coercive control techniques. I don't think this is a coincidence given the way self-Id could be misused by the type of men who would use these.

I think there is a deliberate attempt by some TRAs to dehumanise people on both sides of the debate, to demonise and complain about women's comments and use this to take away spaces we could discuss and credibility.

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SwearyG · 29/03/2018 09:23

I assume you’re making this point on transactivistsnet too, wine ?

You know there are some very vulnerable women being put at risk or abused by the actions of the TRAs? We stand up against the transactivists for women’s rights, and what people fail to realise is that by ensuring that the difference between trans-identified-men and women is retained in law and practice we actually protect those vulnerable and decent transpeople too.

Why are you policing our tone/anger? You do realise this is a reactive movement don’t you?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 29/03/2018 09:18

What's the context for this wine ?

Mayday01 · 29/03/2018 09:18

So, to sum up then, Women be nice?

LangCleg · 29/03/2018 09:14

Actually, I'd rather not tone police women on one of the internet's few remaining places where they can speak freely (within reasonable limits).

Why are you so invested in telling other women how they must speak, Wine? Why are you so intent on pouncing on everything women say and then exaggerating the intent behind it? Why does criticising Shon Faye for his misogyny or not rushing to congratulate Brian Paddick mean that women here don't give a shit about vulnerable people? Who is making the generalisations? Because from where I'm sitting, it seems to be you.

Why don't YOU say what you want to say and let other women say what THEY want to say instead of trying to control the debate?