Important to remember there are people on BOTH sides of the debate

I cannot agree.

I will not direct hatred towards any individual or individuals.

I will continue to put forth my opinion that the idea of self ID is the biggest danger to women’s rights in a century.

I will not be ‘nice’ about it. I will say what I think, in a calm and rational manner, without being abusive in any way.

If people are offended by a woman stating a strong opinion in a calm and rational manner, then they need to look at themselves and ask why they are offended by people disagreeing with them.

Politicians in particular need to understand that women, across the divides of race, creed, colour, age and class are furious and worried and they need to understand that our voices and our votes will follow our opinions.

I am angry. I’m calm, I’m rational, but I’m angry. I refuse to be nice.

For the love of God, could someone with a couple of seconds explain to me how to reply here?
The reply button does FA.

What if I identify as an ornery bastard?

I think this place is remarkably restrained after seeing what’s going on in other places.

Perhaps if we all identify as men people will stop telling us to be nice, inclusive, compassionate, kind, simpering etc.

Perhaps we should all just pop off and chat about kittens and knitting?

Interesting a month ago I posted a video trying to point out the difference between women and men when publicly discussing trans issues.
I posted a video showing a MRA type man who didn't hold back on his views and how no one was calling to have him fired, etc. He is free to have robust views and women are not, even within ourselves we cannot show anger. Almost the last taboo is for us to be angry to shout out and be loud.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3179599-How-Men-React-to-LadyBrain

I would have strongly agreed with you a while ago OP. In fact I started a similar thread myself.

I have changed my mind a bit though.

I’m with you though about the “stoking” of anger and I think it’s important to put corrections in ASAP when incorrect facts are set out.

So still no examples Winewinewinegin?

Do you think it's your socialisation talking? Are you worried that women holding strong opinions is alienating men?

Because, of course, it does. But then ultimately, it achieves.

Whereas being nice, never achieves.

Just think back to the extreme lengths that women have had to go to to change every single law that redresses their disadvantage.

It took 15 years for men to make rape within marriage illegal. 15 years of lobbying and campaigning by women.

It's almost difficult to imagine that, less than 30 years ago, there was such resistance to something so obviously wrong.

I also believe there is a very effective story being spun to some politicians in particular that needs to be tackled and that as there is more attention on women's voices we should be aware of that.

Yeah, I think you’re right on that. Not news to anyone I’m sure that we get presented as cruel bigots who think trans people’s feelings aren’t genuine. So it’s worth bringing that point up in discussions with those who assume we do believe this - to say, yes, I do believe lots of people genuinely hold this belief, I just don’t think that makes it objectively true.

But also, I don’t think we do come across as saying this if people actually read what we’re saying. And that’s why there’s such pushback to the very idea someone would listen to a feminist perspective on this (like the Brian Paddick thing). It’s a lot of “they say such awful things - but don’t actually listen, you’ll have to take my word for it!”

I think the tide is turning. There's a long way to go, but compared to where we were a year ago in terms of open dissent? Big improvement.

I also think that there's a value in the lashing out that TRAs do in response to debates here in that when you compare what's said here to what they tend to say it would take a fairly extreme level of misogyny not to notice that it's not us who're demanding that no discussion be allowed, issuing threats, etc.

"No wonder feminists are getting a bad name."

All women have to behave in an appropriate way because anything else reflects badly on all women. Women don't have 'not all women are like that', unlike TIM and men in general. Nobody is calling out the misogyny of the trans movement, because like misogyny in general, it's seen as a reflection of the individual, not the male population as a whole. No one believes TIM are women, some just use this as a way to stop women voicing an opinion.

And what BarrackerBarmer said.

I find the ENTIRE ideology insulting, sexist, false, regressive, unscientific and damaging.
This is how I feel. I try to be kind to the reasonable transwomen and transmen who post here, but it feels like denying reality in order to spare someone's feelings. Up until recently, it seemed like a harmless thing to do (why not be kind to someone if it makes them feel better), but now we are all being forced to accept the lie as reality and laws are being passed to make us conform and take away our rights.

Whilst I agree that something like criticising prominent transwomen, say, can look like six of one, it really isn't.

And yes I agree that those particular posts can be taken and used.

But it's really a drop in the ocean compared to what's coming at women.

And if anyone takes exception to it, then they are already prejudiced and won't listen.

Other than that, I can't think of any other viewpoint that could, justifiably, be held against anyone, to be honest.

Being blunt about biology, saying you don't want men in your space, whether dysphoric or not, is entirely rational and completely justifiable.

Can you be more specific Winewinewinegin?

What exactly do you think is, possibly, out of order? Which bit?

"Nice" has been tried. It didn't work. It never does when the people you're arguing with see kindness as a weakness to be exploited.

I understand why you are saying this wine but I think causing a fucking uproar is a far more effective tactic than playing nice. Fuck being nice, it's got us nowhere fast.

Barracker
"Every trans person believes that 'female' is a psychological state.
As an actual, biological female, I find the ENTIRE ideology insulting, sexist, false, regressive, unscientific and damaging."

You totally nailed it.

Being a woman is not a psychological state of being. It is a biological reality

I think I see what you're trying to say but I disagree with it.
From a marketing pov, you're saying we need to think about optics.
The problem is that can't be controlled when a large part of the debate occurs on social media under pseudonyms. TAs pretend to be gc feminists and then make posts and threads as inflammatory and abusive as possible.It happens on here. MNers spot it, report it and MNHQ deletes. But you can't stop it happening elsewhere.
Organisations representing our concerns can manage their optics (and they do so very well imo). But we can't manage everyone who cares about this cause.

Assuming that women must have a unified view or must agree with a particular agenda or response, is way more an silencing of women than the OP pointing out that the debate should be more nuanced.

Let's say what we need to say, but with respect, understanding and consideration for the wider picture.

Think we've got that covered. Although really quite bored with other people thinking they can tell the wimmin what to say. They can't. Fuck that. Go spread your message to the group of trans women who want us erased, who want our women's short list places, our toilets, our safe places. You know, the ones that want to throw acid in our faces, to beat us up, to kill us. Because those are the people who have a fucking problem. Not us. In the mean time I will carry on and say what the fuck I want about this.

There are indeed people on both sides of the debate, and the problem is that some of those people are narcissistic shitheads who can and will use your female socialization against you. For example by manipulating you into not saying what you really think because doing so would be "unkind".

After you've engaged with TRAs for long enough it dawns on you that it's the content of what you're saying that they object to, rather than the tone, and there is no way to point out that biological sex exists and has a meaningful impact on how a person's life turns out that they won't try to spin as evil, hateful, etc.

Is there a nicer way to say 'woman' is a material reality not a concept or feeling?

It might be a bit blunt and unpleasant for some people to hear I suppose.

Facts don't have feelings. But people do. If we are going to make a convincing political argument we need to take those into account when lobbying and persuading.

Because that's worked brilliantly for the last five years, hasn't it Wine? All that reasonableness achieved what, exactly? The voice that says Women, be nicer. Women, mind everyone's feelings but your own. Women, mince your words. is the voice of the patriarchy.

If you want to be polite and go with euphemisms or say anything except something that might be retweeted by some extremist TRA on Twitter, be my guest. I don't. If I go over the line (not happened yet) then MNHQ will censor me. I don't need you trying to redraw the lines and censor me, thank you very much. I'll say what I want (within the rules).

I'm not sure where you think the arguments made by feminists are somehow getting this wrong - what did you have in mind?

Feelings are inevitably going to get hurt.

In a choice between lying to spare someone's feelings and being truthful and hurting them I will be choosing the latter.

Which is why I use correct pronouns not 'preferred ones' etc.

I actually think the reason we got here so fast was the inclination to spare the feelings of men who wanted us to pretend they were women. I'm not sure that there IS a way to make a convincing political argument if we have to continue to moderate its truthfulness to be nicer to men.