Important to remember there are people on BOTH sides of the debate

"Well behaved women seldom make history."

Laurel Thatcher Ulrich 1976

Why do you think women's right to privacy and dignity is up for debate?
What is there to debate. We are quite simply saying no.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex, and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

Given the history in the UK with coercive laws that mandate belief you would think politicians would know that it has never once ended well.

So being a feminist is what gives feminists a bad name? That's pretty much always been the case, and it's not the tone people are objecting to, though they may claim that it is in an attempt to manipulate feminists into speaking less directly and therefore less effectively.

There are very few TIM who come onto Mumsnet who don't want to redefine women to include a self identified subset of adult men

Possibly not, but I've seen a post saying
Personally speaking I don’t buy the pink brain/ blue brain hypothesis. Coming from a biomedical background I’m not going to deny the fact of my biology. I’m a woman who presents as a man.

I’m not transitioning to leave womanhood or femininity behind, I’m doing it to feel more comfortable in my body.

That's from a trans-identified female, Transhobbit - not sure if they post here any more, which is a shame as they sounded v sane and sensible.

Wine... I meant focussing on the group of TRAs rather than women who have been deliberately silenced by them!

Yeah don't try to police other women on this, women say what they feel is appropriate so deal with what someone says if you have an issue with it, but posts like this are just condescending and misguided.

Totally, Wine.
You can state a case perfectly well without being insulting. It's really important to make a distinction between "I disagree with you" and "We are sworn enemies". The TRAs of the sort deplored round here can't make that distinction. Let's be better than that.

No wonder feminists are getting a bad name.

If that's the case then we're pretty much doing it right.

Sometimes it's true that you catch more flies with honey but this continuing assault on the rights and the very definition of women and girls has gone waaayyyyy beyond that. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I never went looking for this fight but by dog I will not stand by and let it happen while I wonder if I'm being nice enough.

"As an actual, biological female, I find the ENTIRE ideology insulting, sexist, false, regressive, unscientific and damaging.
Every trans person, by definition, is perpetuating a false idea about women.
So, whilst a trans person may be 'nice' as a person, their beliefs about sex are about as sexist and damaging as can be, and I do not need to respect their position in regards to this issue and how it pertains to me and all females."

I'm with you Barracker, this the absolute crux of the whole thing for me.

MSM = mainstream media.

I agree Daffodil the fact the narrative has been allowed that TERFs kill people is astounding. Seriously fucked up.

Concern should surely be focussed on those TRAs who deliberately manipulate, stoke fears and drive the narrative that women raising concerns are 'baseball bat wielding, book-burning, rape inciting, evil terfs who doxx vulnerable children' and are intent on erasing people who are transgender '
It is they who pose the greatest risk to all of us....

"I think Errol is right. There are plenty of non TRA trans who have concerns and who are being silenced too."

Or are they not speaking up because they can't differentiate between different TIM either?

All TIM are self identified. Noone goes to the doctors with a headache and gets diagnosed as trans. Every single transsexual, transgender or gender fluid man has made that choice. What some want isfor women to believe them without question. When I see TIM on here, I see men who don't want us to look at the GRA too closely.

No wonder feminists are getting a bad name.

Hahahaha.

Feminists have ALWAYS had a bad name. Feminism has always been hated and silenced and shut down.
The only times it hasn’t was when it’s been bastardised and corporatised to serve the patriarchy, feminism is only socially acceptable when it’s a movement that centres every body else with women last in line. Aka NOT FEMINISM.

msm?

LostArt
I haven't seen anything on MSM where a TIM has been told that their definition of women is wrong.

Stating the truth plainly, and the same is true outside of the msm in leftie/socialist/liberal/anarchist circles - women know your place, the men are speaking!

Probably I should say "social prejudice" - I mean interpersonal hostility based on GNC presentation.

There are very few TIM who come onto Mumsnet who don't want to redefine women to include a self identified subset of adult men

Not many, but there are some.

But women’s gender role is to support and affirm others, and if we’re refusing to do that then the sky will fall.

Exactly. I'm happy to - and already have - support dysphoric trans people in the fight for services and against social discrimination.... up until the point that this conflicts with women's rights and/or the safeguarding of minors. At that point, the transactivists who disagree are on their own. If they don't like that, I don't give a shit. Failed female socialisation and proud of it. So there!

"I'm not sure all the non-TRA trans people who've found MN to be one of the few places they can talk without censorship agree with that. There are indeed people on both sides of the self-ID debate, and some of them are transmen and transwomen who are being silenced as much as women are."

I don't see evidence of this, Errol. There are very few TIM who come onto Mumsnet who don't want to redefine women to include a self identified subset of adult men. Some even claim to be female, and say they have been a women longer than most here have been alive. I haven't seen anything on MSM where a TIM has been told that their definition of women is wrong.

No wonder feminists are getting a bad name.

Never let that worry us. Feminists have always had a bad name, whether campaigning to have the vote, for entry into certain professions, for equal pay, for the right to have loans without male guarantors etc... t'was ever thus.

I don't make personal attacks but the time for 'nice' is over. The gloves are now really off.

I think it's worth remembering that the suffragettes resisted, persisted and disrupted. They learnt martial arts. They chained themselves to railings etc. Political rights are gained and lost by fighting. It's not nice. It's not polite. It's too important for those social niceties.

I am convinced that this is why the rage over the treatment of trans people is directed at feminists, not at men, even when men assault and kill them. Violent men are just being men - not great, but still behaving according to gender role. But women’s gender role is to support and affirm others, and if we’re refusing to do that then the sky will fall.

Exactly this. The whole trans ideology is based around gender stereotypes, so women who want to break down those stereotypes are inevitably going to be seen as the enemy.

There's a link in one of the threads today to a thread on the FWR board in December, and it's worth looking at. What stands out a mile:

A quarter of a year ago there were (very occasional) articles about gc views
People were writing letters, talking to politicians, pointing out the issues, and dealing with the Labour Party making reproachful and punishment-threatening noises to women who won't think what they're told.

A quarter of a year later there are lot more, nearly weekly articles about gc views, but people are still writing letters, talking to politicians, pointing out the issues, and dealing with the Labour Party making reproachful and punishment-threatening noises to women who won't think what they're told. However many of those women have now left the Labour Party, have fundraised to legally challenge it, have held multiple meetings across the UK to raise awareness and discuss what is happening, and a number of women have started to organise weekly public protest action.

The contrast in the debate here over the last quarter of a year: for a start the group of people talking is much bigger and broader than it was. The discussion is blunter, plainer, and most of all it's a hell of a lot tougher.

As pps have said, nice, tactful and respectful reasoning, using the proper channels and being above reproach achieved precisely nothing. Those are the strategies depended upon for women to keep themselves in their place.