Shon Fay smearing mumsnet on twitter.

What business is that of yours pink??

GoldenBough

"So. I think a lot of this 'identifying as' something is actually about being very 'normal' but finding a label to describe every aspect of you your, rather ordinary, idiosyncrasies. "

Very interesting post, especially this part. That's exactly what I have been thinking. Everyone is trying to label themselves to somehow stand out from the boring old "cishet" as it's now called.

Peck peck!

Eddie Izzard on Labour's NEC might be a bit of an own goal, in the same way that he backfired on Remain in the referendum.
People of a certain age remember him fondly for his comedy, but to others he could well be tiresome, irritating and unconvincing.

Sorry if this has already been linked to but I’ve been looking though some of Shon’s work published when they were writing ‘pre-transition’ - this is interesting m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sean-faye/so-why-does-feminism-igno_b_1135431.html

However, I think there is a general problem when it comes to men and feminism. Some feminists say it's the oppressors' rage at seeing their patriarchal power and dominion threatened; I say that, in a lot of cases, it's just that men don't get it. Why would we?

Also interesting that Paris choose that metaphor in that when escalators malfunction it's not a malicious act. They don't intend to hurt any passengers who might be inside. Predatory men otoh...

I guess Paris is of the "rape is just a thing that happens, like hurricanes and earthquakes" school of sexist bollocks.

How dare Paris Lees compare a fear of escalators to a fear of male bodied people?How fucking dare they?

Paris Lees doesn't have a clue. Saying 'there is absolutely no evidence' that trans rights (which appear to consist of letting anyone identify as a woman and gain access to women's spaces) could endanger women's rights, does not make that statement true.

No. No matter how often the narrative is framed as 'this is a done deal', no it isn't. No, you don't get to set the parametres of the conversation. No, you don't get to be the only person worthy of respect or being heard. Women are not inferior to you. Women will not be obeying you.

^^this is exactly now any internal, (or external for that matter) monologue that I have, automatically goes.

'Because I say so', really isn't the clincher they so fondly think it is.

Fortunately, women are half the population. Equally fortunately, our grandmothers and great grandmothers secured us the vote.

Paris Lees' hopelessly old-fashioned patriarchal attitude is clouding their judgement of women, because men everywhere still have a sense of entitlement.

Allowing people to automatically change sex doesn't affect men, or people like Paris detrimentally.

So they don't get it. Once it's pointed out, they try and argue against it. Their arguments are automatically spurious (escalators), because, again, they don't get it.

Even if the statistics (98%) are laid out, they go to into predictable MRA mode with indignant NAMALTING.

Unfortunately for Paris, women's lived existence, despite being backed up statistics, doesn't actually rely on them. Because women do get it.

Women everywhere don't have to know that men commit 98% of sexually violent crime, to know why they don't want to share changing rooms with them.

And their answer will be no.

Paris Lees' laughable reasoning of 'because I said so', won't stand a chance.

The thing with escalators is that there are always alternatives, stairs or lifts for example so that people who have a fear of escalators can be accommodated.

The thing with escalators is that they're not responsible for 99% of cases of rape, and they don't kill two women a week in the UK. Men do, though, which is why women want to maintain single sex spaces.

I realize that Paris, being male, doesn't understand this. Paris's inability to comprehend should possibly be pitied, but should not be accommodated. It's just something he's going to have to get past.

I've not RTWT so s/o else may have already said this, but there is an absolutely gorgeous photo of Shon in the Indy today. A puff piece on their favourite 14 transpeoples (except somehow they miss our Lily, and Heather, maybe their fees have gone up?).

Enjoy www.indy100.com/article/trans-lives-shon-faye-juno-dawson-riley-carter-india-willoughby-travis-alabanza-annie-wallace-8099866

So true, Capn - and very succinctly what I was trying to say in my rather wordy post!

So many recent cases where women who have been assaulted aren't believed by police, courtrooms, juries - and yet we're told we're paranoid to protect female spaces. And worse, told that if anything does happen as a result of a male free-for-all in female spaces, we'd be able to have some sort of legal recompense. When we don't even have that now in so many cases! It is actual gaslighting.

Someone posted this on twitter earlier (in relation to the Paddy Jackson rape case but I think it goes wider). I think it's bang on - it is always our fault:

Get harassed - it's only banter
Wary of strange men - uptight
Wary of familiar men - paranoid
Friendly with guys - a slut
Trusting of guys - stupid
Report - a liar
Don't report - part of the problem
Dress up - asking for it
Dress down - ugly and lazy

When is it not our fault?

I agree it's at an impasse, Kneedeep.

Self ID isn't even law yet, but people and organsisations are acting as though it is.

Women are already losing losing out. And that is because of the mantra (that even Diane Abbott has repeated) "transwomen are women".

Born males, who identify as women, have already ousted actual women from political roles. Lily Madigan and Heather Peto have both been born and raised as males, and taken on political position set by for women. Because they "are" women, apparently.

For anyone to deny that women's rights, women's equality, isn't being affected by this, well it's unbelievable. As for women's safety from male violence - in traditionally protected all-female spaces -well, we just have to get over it apparently.

Self id is appallingly bad law! I still cant really believe that actual politicians are considering it.

I agree about 'passing'; it's unusual. I'm really really bad at recognising faces so i actually mostly recognise people by how they move - men move differently (pelvis i assume as i have also spotted pregnancies very early that way).

Oh.

Great.

news.sky.com/story/eddie-izzard-on-labour-nec-after-christine-shawcroft-resigns-over-anti-semitism-row-11311962

There is no logic. Paris denies that any evidence exists that the trans community includes sexual offenders. Paris has an obvious major issue with reality. Chance of having a meaningful conversation is therefore zilch.

The bottom line is a total impasse. People on this extreme line are saying I am a woman, I have always been a woman, my biology is female. All their reasoning comes from their belief that that point is already wholly established beyond doubt.

Gender critical people are saying no, sorry but that's plain not true. It's not possible to build on a concept that's plain not true.

I don't honestly see any way around it.

I see transwomen as looking for validation by being able to freely enter women's spaces. I see, and understand to an extent, the want to validate - but very few transwomen "pass" - I'm sorry but that is my perception.

I think Paris Lees would pass, but Shon wouldn't. The vast, vast majority of TRA transwomen on Twitter, who show photos, do not pass even slightly. But they think they do, because everyone tells them they do, out of politeness.

I'm not sure if they care if everything ends up unisex, tbh, I think they would think they'd won the battle, because there are no spaces segregated on the basis of being biologically female anymore - so it doesn't matter. As long as they can call themselves "women" and not be excluded on the basis of sex, I don't think they care.

I see self ID as bad law, I see it as a loophole for absolutely any male to gain access to female spaces. That is not accusing actual transwomen of being predators, but more that it is an unintended consequence, a loophole for any man who wants to enter female spaces.

And there is plenty of evidence of men wishing to do so, Paris is wrong.

the golden bough
How wise you are I would have freaked if a teenager told me they were pansexual or polyamorous! But can't say I'm surprised at the anodyne meaning as this younger generation is hardly into danger with their safe spaces and trigger warnings. I know I'm not the first to say it but playing outdoors with your friends for long periods unsupervised produced more robust adults. And my parents generation set clear boundares, you were expected to bugger off when the grown ups were having onversations- which as they were all so hard working sitting down with fiends was special-and only bother them if you were in real trouble. I got so annoyed with my daughter letting her son interrupt our conversations when we seldom saw each other-definately saw it as not settng proper boundaries, She and he are so bound at the hip I find it quite sick. I enjoyed hanging with my mum but I also had a private teenage life and I don't mean sex- my own values and interests appropriate to a teenager. Hes 18 and to me lacks sophistication-the sophistication that comes from doing your own thing. It wouldn't surprise me if he was one of those who want to be protected and would throw free speech on the alter to get that safety.. My daughter has a giant sliver up her ass from fence sitting-I suspect she thinks I'm a terf. I wonder if its a class thing my daughter and her son are middle-class and I'm not.
I enjoyed this thread a lot.

Terftastic

What i dont get is what's the end game? If they all need the validation of entering women's spaces isnt that validation going to go up in a puff of smoke once any man can self id themselves into women's spaces? Everything ends up unisex so how will they show how so very special & different they are?

I realise i shouldnt look for logic but it's how my mind works.

Is it the self id itself as a broader concept?

Violence against trans people is wrong, violence against anyone is wrong, but are women being used as human shields merely to validate men's feelings?

I'm currently on that thread.... Comparing trans who suffer violence to women, they really believe they have it as bad.

Since the fear of men is so irrational Paris will have no trouble using the men’s changing rooms. After all there is no threat there is there, from penis bearers?

Some people are scared of escalators.

Interesting equivalence there.

The thing with escalators is that there are always alternatives, stairs or lifts for example so that people who have a fear of escalators can be accommodated.

What alternatives are there for women when men are invading our spaces, with well understood and well documented effects?

What Paris has stated, whether intentionally or not is what feminists have been saying for years:

All public space is male. It's built for and by men. Women are allowed to use public space on sufferance.

Presumably at some point women were supposed to just go back into their kitchens and make Paris a sammich, but we didn't, so now we have to be forced out of public space and the best way to do that is for men to pretend to be a poor and pornified simulacrum of their mental image of womanhood, while still retaining all the character traits of masculinity and invade our spaces, with violence when they believe it to be expedient.

Men have always underestimated women. Silly boys.