Shon Fay smearing mumsnet on twitter.

Yes I think that a lot of people take a statement such as

men can't become women

as equivalent to

the threats that I have seen e.g. talking about mutilating with knives, attacking with baseball bats, raping
Then there is that fact that these people have marched at a ?womens march in USA with baseball bats
And that they have physically attacked a woman, invaded women's events and been very aggressive and disruptive, and are singling women out and following them and verbally attacking them (how long til physical)

I have not seen feminists / women who are gender critical do this stuff. Yes a lot of us are at the end of our tether now but I'm not about to march around wielding a baseball bat, and I wouldn't want to, I dont' want to attack anyone. This idea that women being gender critical is the same as physcally attacking people is ridiculous. And the people who have been confortational are bigger and stronger and more aggressive than the people they are atatcking - why is that? Oh yes because it's men attacking women.

Aristaeus76

I've been known to stubbornly repeat you can't change sex. And women's boundaries are theirs alone to decide and maintain.

Is that the sort of thing you mean?

I think there's stubborn and intolerant words from both sides, to be fair.

Could you give some examples from both sides?

I think there's stubborn and intolerant words from both sides, to be fair.

I’ve yet to read any comments from feminists wanting to punch, beat, fuck up, rape, slap, or murder any trans people. They also haven’t demanded that a trans person sleep with them or suck their clit. Maybe you could show me where ANYTHING that has been posted on here resembles anything these men have said towards women.

I think there's stubborn and intolerant words from both sides, to be fair.

Go DofH, well said!

And all of the political parties are on board with this.

Which shows that something else is going on - what other minority group has gained such a high profile and support so very very quickly?

Women make up 50% of the population and we still do not have full human rights across most of the world including UK.

And the fact that transmen are hardly in the picture at all is also extremely telling.

This is an MRA movement - make no mistake about it. The constant NAMALTing. The inisistence that men know what women's sexual boundaries should be better than women. The insistence that lesbians just "have a go" and the threats when they say they simply are not interested. Lily M a couple of years back was a teen boy going on at Race For Life on twitter as being exclusionary and comparing it to segregation. Demanding answers as to why men were not allowed to run. Saying it was discrimination. An MRA. And now look.

Yes -

I think that many women before - 6 months ago, a year ago - did feel that TIMs who had gone all the way - old school trans-sexuals - were Ok to be in with women

I think that opinon on that has hardened due to the incessant pushing of the TRAs to keep on expanding until no woman can turn a man away from anything or anywhere - for some women this includes their cunts (lesbians) - and this is detrimantal to the old school trans-sexuals who have been quietly getting on with things for years - small in number - and women have been either not noticing or (more frequently) going along with it out of courtesy.

These TRAs are damaging the perception of a minority group who really are in a difficult position - I have no doubt that trans-sexuals are discriminated against horribly + psychologically in a fragile place potentially - that level of hating yur own body must be crippling.

And they are pushing and pushing saying they need to gain acceptance for something that was already accepted - that some people are GNC and like to present accordingly (hello 1970s!) and that this acceptance (which is hardly new) can only be gained by removing all the things that women have fought so hard for, for decades, and denying that men as a group are in any way a danger to women as a group (NAMALT max) while simulataneously stating that men are so dangerous no trans person can be near them if they don't want to be.

So I have hit full TERF - fuck em. They hate women, absolutely hate us. They want to take everything that this misogynist society has allowed us to have - and push us back down to nothing again. Rather than second place we are now a poor third.

I think this is a seperate conversation to just wondering if Shon Fay has had the surgery though which is what I had an issue with.

Totally agree that penis removal doesn’t equal more of a woman. That wasn’t my point.

My point was that sometimes there is a sexual motivation in play. Sometimes it’s delusion. Sometimes it’s something else. But almost always it’s men placing themselves beyond question.

Men who have surgery are no more woman than men who haven’t. It’s relevant though that most people think surgery is a prerequisite to sharing a space with a woman and it isn’t. I think it’s useful for people to know that the dick remains central.

I didn’t get that from your post dukes, I think my last post wasn’t worded well.
I was referring to the people in your post who think that most trans women have had the surgery. I think this needs to be challenged but also clearly stated that it actually doesn’t make them any more of a woman and having the surgery doesn’t change Male patterned violence.

I really don’t think we should be discussing whether individuals have had the surgery unless it’s very relevant to the conversation. Which I know you agree with I was just wanted to say it again.

But the categories male / female and from them man / woman boy / girl are physcial facts -

We are mammals, we have known what is a male and what is a female before speech. ALL mammals know which are the males and which are the females, it's the most basic, fundamental thing, given that all species need to reproduce.

The idea that we - humans - no longer need words to describe this most basic of things is bizarre. And of course removing the words won't remove the facts that humans are in the main male or female, and all over the world they are treated differently because of it, generally with the females being considered basically sub human + the different needs we have due to biology which for most women in the world are NOT met, not even near, meaning massive amounts of permanent injury and death.

As a standard old-school feminist I want rid of gender and everyone can dress, style theselves as they wish, adopt whatever forms of speech / mannerisms, have whatever name.

And leave the surgery for the very few who are so psychologically distressed that there are no other options.

Teacup you miss my point.

I agree with you.

The fact is though that much of the general public think that TIMs are essentially gay men who have had extensive surgery AKA are not "chancers". The idea is that no man with nefarious ideas - whether to do with sex offences or winning at sport or getting a place on a board or whatever - would have their dick cut off in order to do so. And so those who do, are small in number and they have done something so extreme they should be catered to.

It is the idea that most TIMs have had genital surgery that needs to be challeneged, and that most are gay. This is not true.

I don't want anyone getting their body chopped about unless it is absolutely necessary (for physical or psychological reaosns) - I'm surprised you got otherwise from my posts.

A man with his penis removed is not a woman in my view either.

Oh didnt finish my thought.

I have gone full terf and I don't like it.

The loud TRAs and their supporters have pushed it to the point where I am starting to develop a nasty, intolerant attitude. As a lifelong lefty nicey person this is really uncomfortable. But I've had it to the back teeth with this shit.

Like this person. This thread is a personal attack, really, a lot of unpleasant stuff. BUT they think the best advice for schoolkids is to get tits early and suck cock? Why should a person who says that have a mainstream platform? Why should they be treated with super-care. I've had it.

That extreme porn fan as well. The views of these people needs to get out there. Paris Lees - street harassment is empowering and it's just miserable dried up feminists who don't like it. FUCK OFF. You are NOT a woman or you wold KNOW that street harassment is fucking horrible and starts when you're way too young. Get stuffed telling girls and women not to be so poe-faced when men shout obscenities at them on the street. Just stop it.

See I think that rhetoric is really dangerous that in order to ‘earn your place as a woman’ you have to have your penis removed and it should be challenged. There is no evidence that Male pattern violence is lessoned after genital surgery and you can’t change sex no matter how much you pay to be feminised.

I think it muddies the argument if we say ‘well you can’t change sex but that one really really wants to be a woman and has self harmed to prove it so we’ll let that one into female only spaces’

I have gone full terf recently though - I've been on MN for years and posting on this issue for ?4 or 5 -

(NC a lot )

I remember saying years ago, that if we accept that men can be women and vice versa, and boys can be girls and vice versa, and it's all based ona feeling in the person's head, and you can't tell whether someone is male or female without asking them, then it means we have no language to talk about womens/girls (or mens/boys) issues.

So you have a country where 100% of boys and 0% of girls are in education. Then you say, how do you know which are boys and which are girls? You can't, without asking them. So all you can say is that 50% of children are in education, and the issue of no girls being educated is concealed.

A poster back then said don't be so ridiculous. But this is the logical conclusion, it always has been.

And I never thought for a minute that girls would be referred to as "non prostate havers" and that loads of women (on the internets) would DEFEND this, + so many other examples.

The TRAs suggest words like menstruator, non prostate haver, ovulator,
But in the next breath say it is feminists who want to reduce everything to biology
They also say that you can't know what sex you are unless you have hed genetic checks
But apparently women somehow know without tests whether they have ovulated or not?

Whole thing is nonsensical. Fact that lots of powerful people are keen shows that there is something else in there they like - I believe it is a good way to put women back where they belong (at the bottom of the heap with no voice and no presence in non ornamental situations eg sports), whether they relaise this is why they like it or not.

I think many people have an innate and strrong reactiom to the idea of healthy parts being removed - people feel really uncomfortable with the idea of people who want limbs removed etc.

I think the idea is that if a person - if a man - is prepared to go as far as having his penis cut off then he's really fucking serious and has earnt his honorary woman place.

I agree that seeing young people having extensive (painful, not risk free) surgery, being rendered infertile, being signed up to a lifetime of drugs (not risk free) is really upsetting.

As many on MN are mothers, I think that angle adds an extra layer of concern.

Good post TheDukesofHazzard

Also not sure about minding the feelings of a person who feels the correct advice for school kids is to get tits early and suck dick.

My DD started "getting tits" at 8.5, how early is early enough for this person?

Then one advantage of having a go at the GRA would be if we could make it clear that body mutilation is not a necessary part of 'sex change'. It's already not necessary for getting a GRC, nor is taking cross-sex hormones. Playing along and pretending that the surgery will make a difference, needs to stop. I weep when I see those young lesbians having mastectomies.

If only we had a health service that offered meaningful therapy that lasts long enough to get to the root of those dysphoric ideas and to help with relief from them... just what Self-ID would deem unnecessary.

Have you all seen the threads this week on the disastrous surgery-gone-wrong stories, and surgeons who refuse to take the blame?

.

" given that women are in fact referred to as a handy set of warm holes for men to fuck, an awful lot."

And treated as, in fact. Rape is hardly uncommon.

• more and more violent porn representing us thus.

The dick thing is in part because of a general (maybe reducing now) perception in the public of a transwoman as essentially an effeminate gay man who has had full genital surgery which therefore means no threat to women so why are they being so mean?

the fact that many TW fancy women and are bedicked is therefore an important fact to get out there.

I also believe it is crass to discuss on an individual basis

Having your penis + balls removed and a hole created does not turn you into a woman. The idea that you can "make" a vagina and that it's little more than a hole for a dick is highly misogymist and not at all surprising given that women are in fact referred to as a handy set of warm holes for men to fuck, an awful lot.

People who have massive issues with their body to the point they want to remove or alter healthy parts as fundamental as their reproductive organs in order to fit a different internal body image need support and help, it must be incredibly traumatising.

What is forgotten in this though is that it is considered normal for girls and women to experience high amoutns of body distress to the point where they damage themselves to try and suit an internal image. The sad thing here is that it's never enough. Is it ever enough for a trans person - will the reality ever fit the imternal image? That's another conversation probably.

I think that the fact that many TIMs fancy women and keep their dicks is indeed relevant to this conversation. And call themselves lesbians and some say cunty-style lesbians are bigots if they won't lie back and get fucked by the mighty penis - so new, so brave.

etc.

Sometimes, when having this conversation, it can be difficult to remember which way is up. That's how much the TRAs have distorted our language.

I agree with both Ellen & Teacup.

It's creepy for me, being told what good sex is by a born male - GRS or not - extra creepy IMO if they still have a penis. Which, we're also told is now not exclusively a male sex organ. Apparently

There's just a whole load of men telling women what they are, how they must feel, and how to think and speak, what language to use, and to mind their language. I'm a bit sick of it.

(To add: I think XY = man regardless of surgery. I think single sex spaces should be retained in all cases.)