Ulster Rugby Rape Trial - Not guilty to all charges

I wish she would launch a civil action against them. I think we would all chip in.

Yes, agreed. I think she would win on the balance of probabilities.

Intriguing- if you read the transcripts of the whatsapp messages and texts, there is a message from "Kingspan" to Jackson saying that they need to get a solicitor quickly. Pure speculation (though it must have been clarified in the trial itself,) could this be Kingspan, the main sponsor of Ulster rugby club??

See excerpt from Daily Record below:

12.15pm Message from Kingspan to Jackson: “Paddy phone your solicitor they’re telling me you’ll need one”

If it is a representative from the sponsor, they are clearly closely involved from Day 1 of this incident.

www.kingspan.com/group/net-zero-energy/community-spirit

"Kingspan in the community: constructive, collaborative and caring."

Think this warrants a letter about company values....

Well that says it all doesn't it

Terftastic- thanks for your response. I do understand that invasive forensics have to be taken by a police doctor or rape crisis centre. That is not new to me.
I just had no idea that this graphic medical process was filmed and available to the other side.
It seems extraordinary to me that a process akin to a smear test could be legitimately captured on film. What about her dignity/ right to privacy/ right not to have gynaecological footage shared???

Could the expert witness for the defendants not respond to a written report undertaken by a doctor at the time?

This process seems to flout the principles of natural justice. Its like another rape of the victim...

isthismeacceptable sorry it happened to you too.

OkPedro #Metoo as a child - about 6
I still can't bear anyone holding my wrist.Even my kids, even when they were young. It makes me feel like chucking up. Weirdly it was a dream until I watched ester rantzen in my 20's then it came back in technicolour. I phoned a relative who confirmed he had done it to her and others too. The man was an elderly relative. He got away with it by dying as I grew up. I stopped him getting a headstone though.
Cases of sexual abuse are terribly upsetting. I want to protect my children but feel the legal system is too heavily weighed against the complainant.

The inadequacies lie in the actual system. The complainant (in this case the girl) had no representation, she was merely a witness. The lads were able to bring out character witnesses wheras she couldn't. The judge said they had good character in her summing up. This in a case where it came down to she said/they said. The whats app messages would indicate their character was in the sewer. The reports of the public gallery misbehaviour and the jeering/shouting etc was staggering. TBH I am horrified by the way the proceeding were conducted, the discussions of her intimate areas on the radio at breakfast time, the details became a voyeurs wet dream, the excitement in the court of the legal team members at the time of the grandslam. I just think there has to be a better way, justice can be better served by getting the process right. Does it have to be so.....graphic and demeaning? TBH for anyone found innocent - if it was your son, is it fair for details to come out? In this case yes their admission regarding the whats app messages say everything about the way they conduct themselves. So many issues here. I did wonder what if it were a lad in a similar situation? Could it actually be worse? One thing I know for sure, the courts need better designed and the case shouldn't be made public till after - maybe a transcript???

I told my daughter yesterday (15) about how the law was inadequate if anyone was raped and there is no point reporting it. :( It felt shameful that grown up society and our legal system is so inadequate. These guys may have been found innocent of rape but I still believe the girl didn't tell lies. I wish she would launch a civil action against them. I think we would all chip in.

Ravenheart, I'm not a criminal barrister, but I was a witness in a rape case of a friend. It was a thoroughly unpleasant experience.

She also had forensics taken - for historical injuries - she was subjected to an extremely invasive and uncomfortable examination. The results of which, the forensic doctor concluded, were of historical, forced anal sex.

These results were given to the defence - they had to be, because the defendant is entitled to a defence. The defence is entitled to rebuke the results, or explain them, if you like.

In my friends case, the expert witness called on to do so, couldn't. A guilty verdict was found, and the evidence was upheld by the court.

But I share your concern here - why was this evidence held in doubt? To me, it seems unbelievable that this evidence could be dismissed.

Are we now to believe that normal, consensual, sexual relations involve 1cm lacerations to the vagina, bleeding, hysterical crying, and texts to friends saying "it was not consensual" followed by a police report of rape? I don't think so.

#I believe her.

Surely filming and showing an alleged rape victim's gynaecological examination to either the defendants' privately appointed medical expert or a jury is a breach of the alleged victim's human rights?
Why is the sex clinic/ rape crisis centre's medical examination and report, (undertaken so soon after the alleged incidents) not accepted?
Is there any reason to doubt the impartiality and independence of the medical professional at a rape crisis centre?
And if medical evidence of intimate traumatic injury is considered to be irrelevant and inconclusive (ie not determinative of whether a rape has actually taken place) why should women need to have invasive examinations or have this evidence adduced in court (except, I suppose to find and match DNA)?

I am basing this on the Irish Times link posted this evening so perhaps I do not have all the facts.

Perhaps a mumsnet poster with a criminal law background can explain. Because I am puzzled.

metooni
Bloody hell what an amazing young woman you were I can't imagine the pain you went through being torn apart in court and you were the victim!
Shame on those who put you through that 😡
I was abused as a child, I was threatened by my abuser that if I told I'd be the one to be blamed and you know he wasn't wrong

I told my family as an adult

I've had "why didn't you fight him off" I was 9!
"He was a confused teenager" He was 19!

What hope have women got, really?

Metoo 💐💐

I am sorry for you and every single victim of rape. As a mother of young daughters and as a person who pays over half of my wages in tax I demand our leaders to change the way these cases are handled.

I am shocked and appalled that in 2018 nothing really has changing for women.

By they way #metoo. I was only a child so didn’t even tell my parents. I am appalled at what you went through 💐💐

So far I e-mailed kingspan and subway, asking if in light of the blatant misogyny and dislike of women shown and admitted by these men, will they look again at their sponsorship of Ulster rugby
Blah blah
I will e-mail some more tomorrow when I find email addys

And yes, the medical stuff is the most disturbing to me too

Both the fact that is, apparently, OK to inflict them on someone and it is also apparently OK to even consider showing a video of someone undergoing an intimate medical examination to a jury

The whole injury thing is just appalling. I mean how many times do we hear of a woman’s body being found and “signs of sexual assault” being reported. Those signs are surely injury to her privates? So what this case has told us is that injuries to privates are no longer evidence of a sexual assault? Seriously?

The perps in a "date rape" usually try to contact their victims the next day to try to convince them it was all a misunderstanding and to intimidate them.

Why is it not an offence to engage in sexual activity when too drunk to have determined whether the other party has given full consent?

metoo I am so sorry you were put through that and let down by what purports to be our justice system.

elendon I think you have misunderstood the conversation happening here regarding the question of what school she attended. No-one is trying to identify her. We are discussing whether the defendants asked “what school?” Because they believed her to be a school aged girl or whether it was for them to see if they knew her from their school days or through someone they knew.

MeToo

Elendon, no-one is speculating or trying to work out what school she went to.

The comments relate to the fact that one of the WhatsApp messages said "what school?" and I pointed out that in Ireland/NI if you meet someone on a night out the question is often asked, because the community is so small that it's a quick way of working out friends in common.

They had no clue who she was, they were trying to find out. I suspect, though obviously I don't know, that they were hoping to find out that they knew her or knew someone who knew her and could minimise the damage.

That article has made me fucking livid. Fuck those lawyers. Fucking arseholes.

MeToo That's terrible to hear. I'm sorry you had to go through that. And I am also impressed at your strength to do it even at such a young age.