Ulster Rugby Rape Trial - Not guilty to all charges

When they took the stand, they were hardly questioned at all

I thought they didn't give evidence in court?

I go to Irish rugby matches quite frequently but the thought of going to one and seeing either of those two on the pitch makes me feel ill. There's going to be an IRFU review, so I'm hoping their conduct is held against them. They may have been found not guilty but we've seen the messages and we know how they treat and speak about women. They're not appropriate people to put on a green jersey.

What I really don't understand is that in her testimony, she said that Paddy Jackson kissed her (and she consented to that) but that the kissing stopped when he tried to get her trousers off and she realised he didn't know her name.

Paddy Jackson also testified that they kissed but that the kissing stopped when she realised he didn't know her name.

HOW does anyone logically get from that scenario, to the one that the defendants argued, where she was suddenly offering BJs all round, to men who not only didn't know her name, but hadn't even spoken to her upon entering the bedroom?

Just...HOW?

If these ‘fellas’ were from the Shankill or the Falls and working class they would be found guilty on all counts.

They classed themselves as top shaggers they are nothing but a bunch of wankers.

This is what it comes down to, according to Paddy Jackson's barrister:

“Consent is the headline in this case - have the prosecution proved a lack of consent?”

Why the fuck does the prosecution have to prove lack of consent? In no other criminal case does a victim have to prove that she didn't consent to a crime being committed against her. We don't have to prove we didn't consent to having our cars stolen, our houses broken into, our identity stolen, etc etc etc etc. No man has to prove he didn't consent to having a knife stuck into him, or that he didn't consent to being punched in the face

But with rape, she has to PROVE she didn't consent. How the fuck do you prove a negative. Why don't they have to prove CONSENT?

I still think it's possible that they didnt ask because they didn't care about consent. I remember reading interesting research linked on here that "date rapists" "acquaintance rapists" share more in common with the stranger type rapist than is obvous. The things I remember are repeat offences, targeting vulnerable victims, such as campus student rapists honing in on vulnerability - eg the fellow student who has had too much to drink. It was very interesting.
I think it's often a case of not caring that they are hurting the woman involved rather than being totally oblivious/having their own truth.

Either way it's utterly shit.

I thought that the hideous messages these men exchanged would at least destroy any public support for them. I can't believe there is still support. What chances are there of the schools, the clubs etc taking a hard look at the culture around rugby if these young men still have support after talking like they did about young women.

@confuddledconfudle I'm not even talking about it in work anymore as the vitriol just astounds me. But I agree with you in that I think they all have their own truth.

I've a son and frankly if he behaved in the way these men did and talked about women the way these men did, I would be absolutely fucking livid. I'm sure their parents are relieved but I hope to god they tear them a new asshole.

I hope the alleged victim's parents can give the poor woman the support she'll need.

I believe her.

#ibelieveher is trending on twitter, I made the mistake of reading some tweets with PJ hashtags, have reported 4 so far.

They were never on trial, she was.

I am absolutely gutted for this girl. I am ashamed of our court system in NI. The text messages alone show what they did and think of women

Just seen another tweet

There's also one in Dundalk outside the Court House at 1pm. Solidarity with everyone x

www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby-union/paddy-jackson-olding-rape-trial-12196122

This defence is an absolute disgrace. This is why women don't report rape.

I cried today when I read the verdict. Which I have never done before. I'm so sorry for the woman and I hope she gets the support she needs. The lawyers statement after must have been like a kick in the gut, talking about how social media had vilified the men and tough things were for them.

I'm staying away from social media because I don't think I can take the rape apologists.

...saved copies of it for the innocent mens' legal team, so we'll see how it goes.

Why did you do that anneoneil?

pallisers "Her vulva was filmed and shown to a doctor hired by the defendants and then discussed in court"

OMD I didn't know that! How can that be allowed? I'm so shocked I need about 10,000,000 shock emojis.

Re being at risk - of course I'm still at risk of rape. I just think it's a good idea to teach your girls that all men are a risk. Sometimes, in a split second, the memory of that has caused me to flee and probably saved me from some horrible situations.

Snowqueeny75 is there a rally for the woman?

LastGirlonTheLeft

I am so glad to hear you here you say that - I am not a rugby fan either, but most of my friends would follow the game closely, season ticket holders etc.

All i have been hearing is what lovely boys they are!!

Snow - from sassh's post above: Solidarity rallies to say #IBelieveHer tomorrow at half 12:

Belfast Courthouse
Dublin, the Spire
Limerick, Bedford Row

Please RT.

7 days being questioned on the witness stand. That poor young woman.

I hope she knows that women all over the world are disgusted at what this dreadful system has put her through.

Where is the rally in Belfast?

Just because they were found not guilty does not mean they are innocent!

They didn't have a defence case Saw. At least not one that was in any way convincing of anything.

They were asked a few fluffy questions about how much they'd had to drink, and then the jury were told by about 15 different people how wonderful they were. That was about it.

Does anyone legally minded understand what I'm saying? Does this make sense from a legal standpoint?

I agree with confuddle - I feel pretty certain most people will see these pathetic male specimens as guilty. I know in my work (a huge company in NI) that is the consensus.

I don't know anything about rugby or the players (Gaelic sports are my thing) but when I look at these males all I see is arrogance and contempt for women. They disgust me. I wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire.

This interpretation of the law reminds me of the Oscar Pistorius case where he was initially found guilty of the lesser sentence of culpable homicide rather than murder because there was a disagreement over intent.

The original judge said that his statement that he believed he was shooting an intruder made him not guilty of murdering Steenkamp, whereas I believe the appeal court found that he clearly had the intent to kill [whether or not you believe he thought it was an intruder] making him guilty of the higher charge of murder.

In this case, they must be proven to have believed she DIDN'T consent in order to be found guilty but surely this is the reverse - they must surely be able to prove that they actively believed she DID consent in order to be found not guilty. That way the reasonable doubt method actually has some chance of working.