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Ulster Rugby Rape Trial - Not guilty to all charges

980 replies

Quimby · 28/03/2018 12:35

Verdict just returned
Not guilty to all four accused, all unanimous decisions.

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CarrotyO · 31/03/2018 21:04

Do we really have to accept this? I don’t know how to accept this. Can we call for a public inquiry into this case - is that possible? I don’t see how such serious injuries were considered inconsequential, I can’t accept it.

Ravenheart1 · 31/03/2018 20:48

Thanks Kikashi, that link is really helpful.
I am still really bothered by the medical injuries.

See excerpt below from Irish Times.

"The jury also heard medical evidence of the woman’s injuries when she presented at the Rowan Clinic. Giving evidence for the prosecution, Dr Philip Lavery said the most significant injury was a laceration to the woman’s vaginal wall which was still bleeding when she attended at the clinic on the evening after the rape.

Dr Janet Hall, appearing for the defence, said she examined Dr Lavery’s notes along with a video of the woman’s vaginal examination and determined it was not possible to state with certainty the blood came from an injury and not from menstruation.

Both doctors disagreed on the injuries to such an extent that at one stage there was a concern the video of the vaginal examination would have to be shown to the jury. In the end this was avoided and the conflicts were dealt with through the doctors’ evidence.

Overall the medical evidence was of little benefit to jurors one way or the other. Both doctors agreed the injuries did not prove penile penetration or a lack of consent. Furthermore, most sexual assaults do not result in injury, Dr Hall said."

How then do the doctors or jury explain the internal injuries????? Do they think she was impaled on a railing?!

I don't understand. How can a woman ever show she was raped if she cannot rely on internal vaginal injuries following the act? I want to weep...is there an inherent assumption that all women consent to injury and violence, then??

kikashi · 31/03/2018 20:37

metoo how awful for you. Totally, utterly heartbreaking. I do hope your life is a lot better today.

metoonorthernireland · 31/03/2018 20:32

So I have read this thread with tears rolling down my cheeks...tears of sadness for this poor brave girl, and tears of thankfulness for the solidarity (in Marjorie) in this thread for that girl.

I watched this case and am another one who was not surprised by the outcome. I reported sexual abuse that happened to me in N Ireland when I younger than ten years old. I reported it because I felt immense shame every time I thought that another young girl could be hurt because of my inaction. The police reported it and it went to trial at the crown court and I was asked to give evidence. I have never been through a more humiliating and soul destroying process in my life and no matter what happens to me in the future I will not go through this again. The defence lawyer asked me again and again why I didn't scream or run away when I was assaulted (by a man I knew very well). By about the 8th time he asked this the judge stepped in and told him to back off. He then proceeded to degrade my character and trick me with memory games. He questioned the exact wording of the statement I had made two years previously - I did not write this statement, a policewoman wrote it précis from my verbal report and I was never told that the exact wording would or could be held against me in court. My family gave their testaments, including a member who saw things and knew that something sexual had gone on. He then gave his statement and outright lied. My parents were watching and knew he was lying because he mentioned them in an event they swear never happened. No one ever asked my parents about this under oath after he gave his version of events. To get a guilty verdict all 12 jury members had to say guilty, for a not guilty verdict, only one had to say not guilty. The jury was made up of 9 men and 3 women. I never had a chance. My abuser was not on trial, I was. Even though I could never have consented as I was very much underage, I was still made to feel like I wanted the attention.

I will never report a crime like this again. And i would recommend no one else does either - at least not in N Ireland.

Sorry this is ridiculously long...somehow cathartic to write it...but without a doubt, after reading all I can on this trial, after growing up in NI and being surrounded by rugby players like those men...I BELIEVE HER

Passthefuckingprosecco · 31/03/2018 20:23

I think it was no more than a means of trying to suss who she was and what her social connections were (mutual friends, acquaintances etc), to try and gauge what she might do next. You know what it's like, two degrees of separation here at most.

I was a bit taken aback when I read CraicDealers comments above. Then on second reading realised what they referred to (messages between the men). I assume Elendon misunderstood.

kikashi · 31/03/2018 20:17

This article in the Irish Times is a decent summary of the trial:
www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/inside-court-12-the-complete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-trial-1.3443620

NotTakenUsername · 31/03/2018 20:16

Elendon Are you deliberately trying to derail this thread? You aren’t making any sense.

kikashi · 31/03/2018 20:15

There are just so many inconsistencies in the accused stories.

McIlroy always maintained the complainant had performed oral sex on him. The prosecution alleged he had got his story mixed up (the ones the "lads" could have concocted at the lunch meet up to discuss what to do) and had used Olding's storyline.

Olding and Jackson both deny that McIlroy ever appeared in the bedroom and the complainant says he exposed himself and she managed to flee.

Someone out of the three "lads" is lying on that point.

Jackson claims the complainant performed oral sex on him and when Olding came in and she moved on to fellating Olding that he went round the back and touched the complainant's vagina. So how come she came to have a laceration (how many women have ever had sex that resulted in that?). The complainant (hate that word) claimed Jackson had penetrated her with his penis and also tried to insert his hand - why was he not ruthlessly questioned about that??

The defence continually harped on about every little inconsistency in the complainant's statements but the accused seem to have had a very easy ride - was the prosecution just Se?

CarrotyO · 31/03/2018 20:15

Rein what in? Are you seeing an alternative conversation here that the rest of us are not party to?

Elendon · 31/03/2018 20:10

Seriously, rein it in.

This is Northern Ireland we are talking about.

Ravenheart1 · 31/03/2018 20:10

CarrotyO - Precisely.

I am going to write to each of the sponsors- eg Kingspan, BT, Bank of Ireland, EY, BMW.... Each of these companies should have policies on social responsibility, diversity and zero tolerance of harassment of any kind.
Whilst the verdict of the jury is that it could not be shown beyond all reasonable doubt that rape took place, the civil standard for sexual harassment/ misconduct is on the balance of probabilities.
Given the men's own evidence from their whatsapp messages ( which they did not dispute, except to argue they didn't really mean it) they were aware that things were not going well for the victim and showed a callous disregard for her welfare.

As a result of #metoo, many men have been dismissed from positions of power on the basis of women coming forward with accounts of sexual misconduct. Those dismissals did not often take place after trials or court cases. The women were believed and the companies decided there was too much commercial risk defending these men.

So let's talk about commercial risk.

Do these sponsors really want their brands to be associated with men with such (allegedly) repugnant and abusive views/ treatment of very young women? The sponsorship contracts should have a termination clause which states that where an association with an organisation or individual brings the other party into disrepute or causes brand damage, the deal can be immediately terminated.

Think we should follow the money...

treaclesoda · 31/03/2018 20:02

In no way was I speculating on what school she went to, I have no idea and don't want to know. It was just a reference to what they said amongst themselves.

Isthisnameacceptable01 · 31/03/2018 19:59

Good point Zib and sadly another one that was missing from the prosecutions argument.

TheCraicDealer · 31/03/2018 19:39

I think it was no more than a means of trying to suss who she was and what her social connections were (mutual friends, acquaintances etc), to try and gauge what she might do next. You know what it's like, two degrees of separation here at most.

CarrotyO · 31/03/2018 19:39

There are so many points those men could have been grilled on. Why not ask them how exactly they knew she was up for sex, what foreplay had they engaged in, what did she do to let them know she wanted to have sex, did she look scared or happy, how did they know she was aroused. I mean the court case seemed graphic enough so why is the woman’s arousal not deemed an important factor? Why is it purely a question of “consent” and not a question of wanting and enjoying sex? Is womens’ pleasure so removed from societies concept of an acceptable sexual encounter?

Ravenheart1 · 31/03/2018 19:37

Zibbidoo - and sorry to hear about what happened to you. It feels like women are never safe.. if even a teenage snog at a party can end in disaster.

NotTakenUsername · 31/03/2018 19:32

Can we not speculate on what school she went to.

Nobody is. They are discussing the context of why that was a question. As in, current school = underage, vs school she went to, as a means of labelling her in some way.

No one on this thread wants to identify this young woman in any way.

WickedLazy · 31/03/2018 19:28

Complainant: “He’d already tried it on earlier and I firmly told him where to go."

Complainant: "The next thing I'm bent over the bed"

There was blood from the tear in her vaginal wall, on his trousers.

Ravenheart1 · 31/03/2018 19:25

MaryZ, Zibbidoo- excellent points on the messages between the men about how upset she was and the lack of curiosity re: cause of her distress- because they already knew..

Ravenheart1 · 31/03/2018 19:21

treaclesoda, thanks for clarifying, that makes sense. Poor, poor girl.

Elendon · 31/03/2018 19:19

Can we not speculate on what school she went to.

Otherwise, I will report this thread.

Ravenheart1 · 31/03/2018 19:19

I agree its hard to advise on practical measures - hence my despair. But I would now be wary about house parties, gangs of men egging each other on, suggest that a girl should really knew the guy before kissing him alone, if really drunk etc etc. Its frustrating that women have to adopt some sort of Victorian morality to avoid getting attacked, but this case has left me feeling that girls are extremely vulnerable even when they might be lulled into a false sense of security...

treaclesoda · 31/03/2018 19:17

She said she had kissed him voluntarily but then didn't want to go further because he didn't know her name, then that the atmosphere changed and she wanted to go home, hence she went to get her bag.

Maryz I hadn't thought of it like that, with the school. Although tbh even as a N Ireland person I don't remember people in that context (partying in our late teens and early twenties) as being interested in what school anyone went to. Although it certainly has always featured heavily everywhere I have ever worked.

Ravenheart1 · 31/03/2018 19:13

I thought she had allegedly already fended one of the players downstairs, had decided she wanted to leave the party, went back upstairs because she realised she had left her clutch bag in the bedroom and then got (allegedly) grabbed from behind by him - he had followed her upstairs.

So she had not been kissing him in his bedroom, voluntarily. But correct me if I am wrong!

This is the full reported transcripts of text messages:

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/worst-night-ever-raped-full-12272939

Elendon · 31/03/2018 19:11

It wouldn't have mattered if she was 'underage' though. Sickening.