Royal College of Psychiatrists Statement

mrswooster you've have 4 more years experience of being a woman than me.

From the basis of no study whatsoever other than being a woman for 51years, no, I don't think. I think sex is innate and carries an enormous amount of influence in terms of physical and emotional behaviour. Gender is societal expectations.

MrsWooster Is gender just a societal construct though? Might there not also be biological components to gender that are not well understood?

If you pushed me to define my own gender, I'd have to go for gender neutral as I genuinely don't have a strong affinity to being female gender, although I am clearly female sex Don't a lot of people feel that way? Does that make us all trans? Genuine questions. Not sarcasm. I've never discussed this irl

Going back to what Ratty said: "Well it's certainly evidence that there is discomfort between their sex and something inside them, isn't it. And they call that thing a person's "gender"
It's not something INSIDE them; gender isn't inside. Gender is a societal construct.

oldcrone that's a really good point about the definition of gender. A clear definition is seriously lacking in this debate and a big part of the problem imo

Agree, nosquirrels

The glossary in that document makes no sense.

Gender identity - Self-identification and/or social identity as male/female/other gender. Other gender identities may include gender neutral, non-binary, fluid, and genderqueer.
Gender identity as an identity of a gender is a meaningless circular definition. The term gender is not defined at all.

Transition - Process of change from the gender role associated with sex assigned at birth to another gender role.
Since the term gender role is not defined, I suppose the assumption is that it just means stereotypes. Where does this leave people who do not accept or wish to conform to stereotypes?

More worrying is this:
Conversion treatment - These include any approach that aims to: ... 2) persuade or pressurise trans people to accept (or align their gender identity with) their sex assigned at birth
This seems to be saying that trying to persuade someone that there is nothing wrong with their body is unacceptable. So it would be better to affirm that their body is wrong, and needs fixing. Does this happen in any other area of psychotherapy?

ie definitely not neurotypical but not necessarily ill

This is a very useful analogy. ASD is diagnosed by professionals, so should gender disphoria, imo.

But medical professionals and legal institutions should not be telling them that this is objective truth because it isn't

Can wholeheartedly agree with this!

New diagnostic techniques are developed all the time. Just because it isn't possible now, doesn't mean that there are no biological differences that may be used for diagnosis in the future.

I didn't mean to say that there is no possibility of there ever being a diagnostic brain scan for trans (although I think it highly unlikely) - only that there isn't now and the studies touted by activists are generally poor and don't mean what the activists say they mean.

As I just said to Rat, the only real way any of this will be of any genuine use in the context of the way in which humans conduct social presentation and relationships will be to establish to what extent brain plasticity is responsible and how far what is innate is responsible.

I cannot imagine how we will ever establish that to any degree of certainty - impossible to control for - so really, we are stuck with the same old nature vs nurture argument we've always been stuck with.

I don't mind trans people making sense of their dysphoria by telling themselves the story that they were born in the wrong body. Whatever gets them through the day is fine by me. But medical professionals and legal institutions should not be telling them that this is objective truth because it isn't - it's a coping strategy. And women's rights should not be sacrificed for anybody's coping strategy.

which does not place any pressure on children to live or behave in accordance with their sex assigned at birth

what they ought to say is live or behave in accordance with cultural norms associated with their sex assigned at birth

When you put it like that flowers it makes sense to me.

Nobody said it was the same as asd thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth. Just that the way we think about people with ASD, ie definitely not neurotypical but not necessarily ill, might be a useful analogy when discussing transgender people

You can't diagnose sexual orientation by brain scan as far as I'm aware

It is more settled (as in better studies with proper control groups and genuine peer review) that gay men have brains that are slightly more "feminine" in a few areas than it is than trans people do.

That said, as I am about to say to flowers, brain plasticity means we really don't know the balance between nature and nurture and likely never will.

I don't believe in souls either.

But I am prepared to believe that some people experience a strong sense of "gender" - and that that feeling is innate - and that they were most likely born that way.

So what you presumably mean is that asd manifests in different ways in different people. That’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is akin to transgenderism. It isn’t.

LangCleg

If it was, there would be the simple matter of a brain scan to diagnose it. But, of course, there isn't, because all the studies activists like to quote do not control for, as one example of many, homosexuality. If it was possible to diagnose dysphoria via a brain scan, it would be protocol. It isn't, so it isn't

That's just not true. New diagnostic techniques are developed all the time. Just because it isn't possible now, doesn't mean that there are no biological differences that may be used for diagnosis in the future.

And even if it were possible, it wouldn't mean that someone has a soul, separate from their body, that belongs to the opposite sex. It would just mean that their brain, be it male or female, was slightly off kilter to the population average for male or female brains. Just as a 6ft 4in woman is an unusually tall woman but not a man.

I think I agree with most of this. I'm certainly not arguing for souls or that transwoman = woman. I'm arguing that there may be a biological basis for the feeling of gender dysphoria and that there is evidence that supports it, but no proof as yet.

it's just a statement that many of us came to find helpful after discussing asd and autism with each other for about five years on a daily basis.

we didn't come up with a summary of the summary, but all the references are there on the SN board if you want to plug in the words.

I recommend the posts by a poster whose name included terms similar to "jimjams" as a starter.

But what did you mean when you wrote that statement?
I’m well aware of what asd is - I live with it.

if transgenderism is caused by, or contributed to, by brain differences present at birth

If it was, there would be the simple matter of a brain scan to diagnose it

Would it really be a simple matter of a brain scan to diagnose though? You can't diagnose sexual orientation by brain scan as far as I'm aware, and yet I'm pretty sure I was born this way. And by that I mean it wasn't anything anyone did that made me straight and nothing anyone could do could change it.

I'm definitely not making a direct connection between transgenderism and homosexuality (yes, yes, one is a sexual orientation), but I am genuinely curious as to why our inability to currently identify transgenderism in the brain means it can't be something present from birth.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake.

Autism is not one thing - take a look at the many many discussions on this one the special needs board.

Asd “not one thing” what does that sentence mean?
Asd is a pervasive neuro developmental disorder. Transgenderism is not. There is no equivalence between the two things.

if transgenderism is caused by, or contributed to, by brain differences present at birth

If it was, there would be the simple matter of a brain scan to diagnose it. But, of course, there isn't, because all the studies activists like to quote do not control for, as one example of many, homosexuality. If it was possible to diagnose dysphoria via a brain scan, it would be protocol. It isn't, so it isn't.

And even if it were possible, it wouldn't mean that someone has a soul, separate from their body, that belongs to the opposite sex. It would just mean that their brain, be it male or female, was slightly off kilter to the population average for male or female brains. Just as a 6ft 4in woman is an unusually tall woman but not a man.

ASD is not one thing.

I expect transgenderism isn't either.