Royal College of Psychiatrists Statement

I wonder, if I'd neglected to type a different word (because so obvious to most people that why would you?) if Rat would now be arguing about the waffly existential meaning of "day", or "rain", or anything else that can potentially be used to distract and shift the goalposts.

Rain, what does it really mean? Is hail a form of rain or something different, metaphysically speaking? Are we mis-weathering rain that's really cold but not actually frozen if we don't call it hail? And if so, can a man be a woman if he says so? Truly it is a mystery that will never be fully solved, and therefore we must let people with cocks undress in women's changing rooms or we're nasty bigots.

If you went to try a vote when you were 16 because you self identified as an adult.

No, absolutely flowers, the legal definition is totally the bottom line in scenarios where the context is a state/legal one.

But think about if your went to vote in a country where the legal age is different to here; you ARE an adult here, but you wouldn't be there. You are an adult only by the definition of the word that is RELEVANT to the context.

So there has to be a clear definition for each context - I absolutely agree - but I don't believe that there has to be "one true meaning" so to speak, because that just isn't true of loads of different things.

Just like"adult", the meaning can be different for different things, so long as you know which meaning applies at which time.

But most people flick between meanings quite naturally without any fuss.

Nah, because "typically associated with" is disingenuous nonsense. Which, again, I'm guessing I'm not the only person noticing a pattern there.

Do you just want something you can write in the dictionary to replace "adult female human"? How about "a state of being typically associated with adult female humans". That means about as much as "adult female human" (given that adult means all sorts of different things in different locations or contexts) and is about as explanatory as any dictionary definition.

You okay with that?

rat but you would get people screaming "Adult is the day you turned 18!" If you went to try a vote when you were 16 because you self identified as an adult. That's why the clear verifiable definition is important. You verify your are an adult with your birth certificate, which confirms the biological fact of the day you were born. Age self-I'D would give you a certificate based on your feeling of when you should have been born.

You first, Rat! Be the change you seek! Give us a definition of "woman" that isn't circular and then maybe those of us who're already a bit tired of this routine will consider engaging with you more seriously.

Yes Lang, thank you. That's exactly my point really, we have a specific definition in law for the purpose of law.

But that definition is not the sum total of our understanding of the word in other contexts.

Try telling a biologist that adulthood is exclusively the age at which the law recognises you as an adult.

Try telling someone who feels like an adult, who has been very aware of the events that led to their growing up and becoming an adult, that either of those terms are sufficient.

And that seems to work okay. We can and already do handle complex concepts and words that have a plethora of meanings in a variety of contexts.

I've never said anyone is stupid Angry, or implied it. I'm sorry if that's what you're taking from my posts - it isn't there in the writing of them, I assure you.

I'm not trying to change the subject, or muddy anything, but I have twice now asked direct questions on this thread and rather than receiving answers for debate I've mostly had reams of reasons why those questions don't need answering. It's no surprise the debate isn't getting us very far is it.

You can't whinge about not getting an answer to "what is a woman?" if you won't proffer a response to "what is an adult?".

Oh, I've just realised, did you think I was accusing you of being stupid by saying you didn't follow my post? No, no, I was offering to rephrase if I hadn't been clear.

Perhaps I became an adult when my mother died. The concept of that certainly isn't alien to anyone. No-one's going to shout at me that "Adult is the day you turned 18! There is no internal sense of adult! Legal adulthood is a social construct!" - because that would be silly, and in complete denial of what we use the word to mean.

The law seems to work just fine with that.

The law in England, Wales and Northern Ireland defines an adult as anyone 18 or over. The law in Scotland defines an adult as anyone 16 or over.

We all know that socially we may have different senses of the word. But where a legal standard is needed, the age of an adult is defined in law. Even in areas where children are treated as having the same capacity as an adult (eg age of consent; criminal responsibility) UK law defines a person under the age of 18 (or 16 in Scotland) as a child, not an adult.

The law has these definitions because any law that does not define its terms is bad law. As we have covered already.

I did follow it, and it's a ridiculous attempt at changing the subject and muddying the issue. As is most of what you post, really.

This new thing where you suggest that anyone who disagrees with you must be stupid isn't working out very well for you so far.

You didn't follow my post Angry. What is an adult?

Referring to a child, rather.

Um, what? Isn't it a bit early to be hitting the gin, Rat?

There's nothing ineffable about "adult" either. Most people would understand that "woman" implies "adult" and if one was referring to a woman one would use "girl" instead.

Except you, apparently.

There's nothing ineffable about being a human female, humans both male and female have been able to recognize which humans are female (and treat them as lesser as a result) for millennia.

I see you left out the word "adult" from the "woman" description (adult female human), probably because that's the ineffable bit.

Someone was always going to notice.

So here's the thing, "adult" has a biological meaning, as in the age of sexual maturity. It also has a legal meaning, an age in years, which varies by country and is not the same as the age of sexual maturity. It also has social and personal meanings; behaving like an adult, feeling like an adult, what it means to be an adult; and quite aside from the legal and sexual side of things there is a wide understanding that it can be some self-identified point in an individual's own life that could not objectively be defined.

Perhaps I became an adult when my mother died. The concept of that certainly isn't alien to anyone. No-one's going to shout at me that "Adult is the day you turned 18! There is no internal sense of adult! Legal adulthood is a social construct!" - because that would be silly, and in complete denial of what we use the word to mean.

The law seems to work just fine with that.

It's a complex and nuanced concept, but we're coping it would seem.

To me, "woman" is the same thing. It has a biological meaning, a legal meaning, a cultural and social meaning AND a personal, internal meaning for some; and the reason I know it has a personal, internal reason for some is that they tell us so - and that is how we come to know these things.

There's nothing ineffable about being a human female, humans both male and female have been able to recognize which humans are female (and treat them as lesser as a result) for millennia.

As far as an individual's inner sense of self, well, there are about 7 billion of those, and it's not really practical to make laws based on which group each person kind of thinks on some existential level that they ought to belong to.

Mental illness is an ineffable problem. As has happened before, the treatment is as much of a problem as the illness.The co-morbidity of gender identity disorder with NPD makes it very difficult to treat. Affirmation so called therapy makes it even more difficult to treat.

@Jayceedove. Thank you. It seems to be a horribly ineffable problem and that's why I get annoyed with the unwarranted certainty of the critics here.

Sound like a prat but I don't care. Saying 'I am a woman' is now just making a set of noises because NOBODY will ever say what it means.

Self ID means ascribing somebody who can make a certain noise 'I am a woman' or write down a set of letters 'I am a woman' a set of rights that were originally ascribed to another group entirely. The features of the original group that were described by 'woman' are now neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to be ascribed thudcword, but nothing has replaced them.

All one now learns when someone says 'I am a woman' is that the person can make a certain set of noises. That's it.

borntobequiet
I don't claim to speak for anyone other than myself
But you said that for many years women didn't have a problem with men performing and being validated in unacceptable sexist stereotypes and making sure they are further reinforced and conflated with 'woman'?
I have always had a problem with that. Hence my comment that you don't speak for all women.

That's probably a personal pathology combined with an excusable inability to define gender - who can?
I can.
Gender is the requisite performance of dominance and submission displays designed to regulate and maintain the social order of sex, class, and race in all cultures.

Over many years I have encountered transsexual people in female spaces (so public toilets) from time to time, who quietly went about their business largely ignored by women, who nevertheless were quite clear about who and what they were.

Zombie lies never die because people are relentless in repeating them. It was not uncommon for men who identified as women to be arrested for trespassing and voyeurism when they refused women's demand that they GTFO of women's private spaces.

Are there any other delusional mental illnesses that males suffer from that we should expect a requirement of public affirmation to be codified into law?
I could be wrong but I think this is a first.

Yes, I detached from feminism at the point where biology seemed to be being denied, late 70s/early 80s, so I have no idea what these waves consisted of. I'm sure someone will be able to list the benefits feminist theory has brought about for women, over and above benefits that came about through advances in medicine, improvements in education and improving standards of living in general.
Over many years I have encountered transsexual people in female spaces (so public toilets) from time to time, who quietly went about their business largely ignored by women, who nevertheless were quite clear about who and what they were.
I don't claim to speak for anyone other than myself, and currently I'm most concerned by the flat out denial of fact articulated by transactivists and their supporters and the dangers presented by a small number of predatory men if gender self ID comes about.

And I think most of us understand the desire of transexual men

Increasingly, I find I don't really care centrally about transsexuals.

I want them to be able to live their lives unmolested, without violence, and without facing discrimination (as long as they themselves are law-abiding).

My central concern is for and with women, and women's lives and experiences, and women's rights to live without sex-based discrimination.

And @BarrackerBarmer you hit the nail on the head when you write Their [transsexuals'] need to act out stereotypes and insistence that this be celebrated as part of being a woman is where a great deal of the conflict lies

Let transsexual men get on with living as they need to live, but stop effing requiring women to step aside, deny their own experiences, and centre you.