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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Meeting With Stella Creasy Advice Please

137 replies

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 28/03/2018 10:39

NC for this.
Has anyone else met with her?
I forwarded the Sex Matters document but from her communications it seems that she doesn't understand the harms beyond codifying gender stereotypes into law.

My feeling is that someone who only sees that will also think that self-ID is a good thing because it does away with stereotypes ie it means that you can look, act, think and live like a bloke and also actually be a bloke, but as long as you 'feel like a woman' then you can legally 'become' one, without conforming to any stereotypes or needing them codified into law.

Thanks in advance for any advice on preparation for the meeting or handling it. I am worried my mouth might run away with me and do more harm than good.

I am meeting her tomorrow.

OP posts:
Chocolatecake84 · 28/03/2018 20:13

I posted this in another thread but it seems pertinent here too. Sorry for the double post.

I think it's important to ask difficult questions like these.

Transwomen and transmen already have human rights, as they should. They have the right to live as they choose and to be free from prejudice, discrimination and harm. What they do not have the right to do is "to claim membership of a sex to which they CATEGORICALLY DO NOT BELONG, if it comes at the expense of the original members of that sex being forced to cede their own rights to definition. That is not a human right. It should never be a human right to force others to falsely identify themselves for the benefit of another." (Anon). Women have the right to name ourselves women and females and to talk about our lives, our experiences and our bodies. Transwomen can take hormones, they can have surgery. They will always be male. Likewise, transmen will always be female. It is impossible to change sex. That's just reality, not transphobia or bigotry.

Ask her why is all this only going one way? If transwomen really are women then transmen really are men. They should have male privilege. Why then, do transwomen dominate the movement? If transmen have male privilege why aren’t they the dominant voice?

Why aren't men's spaces being invaded? Why aren't men being told they're transphobic or bigoted for talking about their penises? Why isn't their language being changed? Why is the meaning of woman being changed but the meaning of man remains adult human male? Why is it ok to have men-only and transwomen-only groups and spaces but women-only is bigotry? Ask about sports. Why does she think it's fair that males are allowed to compete in women's sports? Doesn't the fact that transwomen are famous for achievements in entertainment, business etc whilst transmen are famous for giving birth tell us something? We're not smashing gender roles but actually reinforcing them.

Why does she think we have same-sex spaces in the first place? It is for privacy and dignity as well as safety. Women are human beings, like men and we are allowed privacy and dignity in our private spaces, like men. There are also hundreds of cases of men taking advantage of gender identity laws in the US and Canada to harm women and children. How can we have a movement like MeToo, which shows how prevalent sexual violence against women is and then think it’s acceptable to let men into women’s private spaces? No one is suggesting every transwoman is a danger to women in segregated spaces. The presence of a male bodied person in a female only space makes women FEEL threatened. Women seeking shelter or a private space are entitled to not have to FEEL threatened in the place they are sheltering.

In Ireland, despite the gender identity law, men and women in prisons are still segregated by sex. Why? If she believes that transwomen and women should be separate in prisons but not elsewhere, why is this?

Transwomen say they’re scared to use male spaces because of the threat of male violence against them, usually from strangers. Women in abusive relationships are scared of their partner hitting or raping them. Heterosexual men have been attacked in toilets. The last one is pretty rare but it does happen. Why then, is it not the same when a woman says that she has the SAME fear of male bodied violence from a man who is a complete stranger to her in a female space? Men are the physically stronger sex. Who does she think would gain the upper hand in a struggle?

Why is it acceptable for a transwoman to feel uncomfortable being searched by a man at a club and request a woman? Never mind the fact that a woman may not want to search a man. But if a man follows a young girl into a changing room and undresses, and she is frightened, she is a bigot? What about Muslim women? Are they also bigots for not wanting to see men in their private spaces? What is happening here is not equality. One group is clearly more important than the other group.

Why is saying a woman is an adult human female dangerous? Why is speaking the truth dangerous?

If transwomen are the same as women, then why do they need the word trans? What are they transitioning from and how are they the same as women?

If a woman isn't an adult human female then what is a woman? No-one has provided any other definition of the word woman. So how do transwomen know they're women if they can't even define the word woman?

Make sure you mention that over 80% of males claiming to be women retain their male genitalia. Many also take no steps to pass as women. No hormones, no surgery. With self-ID they wouldn't even have to dress "feminine" (whatever that means). A man in jeans and with a beard can literally say he's a woman and nobody would be allowed to challenge him.

Ask her how men know they are women. They claim it's a "feeling" or an "identity". This is really insulting. They are reducing women to a feeling inside a man's head. And how do men know how women feel?

Tell her about the recent rises in upskirting in schools. This was reported on yesterday. Girls are wearing shorts under skirts because of the rise. How can we teach girls (and boys too) boundaries and consent whilst at the same time telling girls that sometimes they are not allowed to say no to males in their private spaces? They are not allowed privacy and dignity because the feelings of men and boys come first? You could mention the Girl Guides and their policies allowing boys to sleep and shower with girls.

SmurfOrTerf · 28/03/2018 20:06

I agree CisPink it is a very good article, worth printing out.

CharlieParley · 28/03/2018 18:17

Sorry missed out the bit that explains the 16 to 19 out of 20 transwomen calculation:

650K estimated trans people (1% of UK pop)

30K have sought any medical help (5% of trans pop)

up to 130K could seek medical help eventually (20% of trans pop)

5K have a GRC (and those had to at least have a plan to medically transition, ie at a minimum plan to take cross sex hormones. As bottom surgery is such a drastic step, the number of post-op transwomen is therefore vanishingly small)

bunbunny · 28/03/2018 18:15

I would ask her to clarify exactly what certain terms mean to her before you start, 'to make sure that we are not talking at cross purposes, as happens a lot when people start talking about trans issues, I have noticed...'

And then get her to provide her definition of a woman, a transwoman, a word to identify non-trans women if her definition of women included transwomen, the number of trans people who don't have surgery, the difference between transgender and transsexuals, the proportion of transwomen with gender dysphoria vs AGP and so on.

If in those first couple of minutes you can get to understand exactly where she is coming from, make sure that she has the basic facts and you aren't talking at cross purposes, then it should be much easier to see which direction to take and to make sure that she gets to see the reality.

Oh and yes to using the sentence proposed earlier as an opener too about supporting trans people rights to live their lives with dignity etc.

If you have time I would also do a little digging into her background and see if there's anything in it that is gender atypical - even if it's just having short hair and liking playing with cars or dinosaurs when she was little - anything that you could use to say that today, that could be enough for people to say that she was trans rather than that she happened to be a girl with short hair that liked dinosaurs and that although we're trying to break down the barriers as to what girls and women should or shouldn't do or like, there are some people who are popping up all too quickly to try to strengthen gender stereotypes because it suits the radical trans lobby. Sorry, not explained that very well, hope you get what I'm trying to get at though!

CharlieParley · 28/03/2018 18:09

Wow, that's a lot of good pointers. If you still need an example to use - When I met my MSP I led with asking him what made Eddie Izzard a worthier woman than me that he should be given priority in a company board member selection process for a female space.

That exact question wouldn't work for you of course because I spoke to my MSP about a particular new Scottish law, but what impressed my MSP was that Eddie Izzard is much more representative of the majority of transwomen in the UK than the vulnerable transsexuals the politicians think they are protecting.

GIRES, a trans rights organisation submitted the numbers in evidence to the Transgender Equality Inquiry. According to this (top of page 2):

Only 5% of the UK's trans identified people have sought any medical help (please note "medical help" also includes therapy), and less than 5000 have got a GRC. So 16 to 19 out of 20 transwomen in the UK are like Eddie Izzard (non-med, non-op). No need to stress he's a crossdresser.

Good luck and let us know how it went!

WeAreGerbil · 28/03/2018 17:38

I think the point about individual TIMs being a risk is irrelevant, as girls and women we are socialised to keep ourselves safe by assuming any man could be a risk as we don't know who is and who isn't. These are reactions that we are getting from the bit of our brain that warns us of danger, it's become instinctive, it's not about conscious thought, particularly for the many of us who have actually been assaulted. It's there for a good reason and in any other situation we'd be telling our daughters to take note on their instincts to keep them safe. Now who knows what people are recommending we tell them, though I know what I'm saying! In hospital if people are feeling unsafe and being triggered it's going to affect clinical outcomes.

Theswaggyotter · 28/03/2018 17:03

Since you are talking about hospitals I would mention the case where a psychotic woman was forced to share a ward with a biologically intact male who self id as female. Her psychosis related to paranoia about TRAs wanting to kill her and she was forced to share with a man! She then felt less able to access healthcare with subsequent mental illness as she had been branded transphobic while on the Ward. You couldn’t make this stuff up!

grasspigeons · 28/03/2018 16:28

I agree with Rapidonsetfrustration that you want to stick to the area of hospital segregation

I think you don't want to cover too many points either as you just wont have time

Things that are probably less likely to stray into you just don't like trans people and think they are all perverts are:

how symptoms present differently according to BIOLOGY so you need to make sure you are dealing with the right biology even if you use the persons preferred pronouns. (show the great lung capacity chart or how a male liver can cope with a different amount of alcohol) and single sex wards allows staff to tune into that.

Having trans people recorded is the wrong biology could impact on important research /statistics that take place in a hospital setting or errors like pregnant men having an x-ray

safety - I would probably stay away from the idea that trans people are a risk as the only trans people I know aren't a risk, but focus on how self ID is easy to exploit, whereas the current system is less exploitable and how that ease puts all women including transwomen at increased risk.

Dignity /consent - this is really difficult as some people are happy naked in the middle of a shopping centre, and some are covered head to toe and both would probably say there were dignified.

however, I would say at a very basic level we live in a society where our genitals, in the presence of the opposite type of genitalia are always covered, unless we consent to them being uncovered and in a hospital ward that is really difficult to maintain (especially in those stupid hospital gowns)

Does anyone more knowledgeable know how Ireland and Canada deal with self id and medical stuff and single sex wards

slug · 28/03/2018 15:29

She's the MP for Walthamstow isn't she? About a quarter of her constituents are Muslim and a reasonably large number are Jewish. Ask her how self ID will affect services for her constituents.

After every answer, ask her how this will affect her religious constituents and what, does she think, will be the effect on her vote share should someone choose to run against her next election on the platform of "Stella Creasey took away your rights to dignity and safety"

IndominusRex · 28/03/2018 15:18

Yes to statistics and yes to medicine.

Also see the 'labour losing women' article.

MsBeaujangles · 28/03/2018 15:07

@RefuseToDenounceBiology, I've sent you a PM.

LizzieSiddal · 28/03/2018 15:06

Women have a protected status in law because evidence shows they are likely to suffer discrimination and abuse because of biology - women are less strong, can get pregnant through rape etc.

Trans women aren’t oppressed by biology in this way. They suffer discrimination and abuse by men too, but not because of their biology.

These are such important points and very pertinent to hospital wards. Also the “aren’t natal women entitled to privacy/dignity” query.

Melamin · 28/03/2018 14:37

Skewing of statistics is a good one - maybe she could find out for you why there were 6 women rapists in 2016?

How many of these were 'joint enterprise' and how many actually raped?

DarthArts · 28/03/2018 14:35

Just seen this on another thread.

I'd print it out and ask her to read it :-)

medium.com/@tom_farr/the-left-are-abandoning-women-and-in-doing-so-abandoning-everything-they-stand-for-51fd63457d8c

nauticant · 28/03/2018 14:05

Examples can be effective. One case that I think has been difficult for people to wave away with "what's the fuss?" is this one:

inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

My argument around this would be to say that I think women should have the right specify that some of their treatment will be by health professionals who were born as women. At this point, discussing the needs of Muslim women can be introduced.

If you can get Creasy to engage with this, then you can say that blanket self-ID will introduce problems and if the law is changed it will have to be qualified in many ways to deal with problems like this. This shows that this is very complex and proper in-depth research will be needed before contemplating any change in the law in this area.

Rapidonsetfrustration · 28/03/2018 13:46

OP - I agree stick to hospital wards, otherwise you could get bogged down in theoretical stuff and you'll run out of time.

Ask why we segregate on the basis of sex? (safety - men present a greater risk to women then women do to men. Also, dignity, comfort, women have biological functions that men do not).

Point out that (i) Majority of transwomen retain male genitalia (ii) Research indicates that transwomen retain a male pattern of criminality. (iii) 1 in 3 women have been victims of sexual assault or violence (mention 'Me Too' etc.)

State that whilst we're not saying that all transwomen will harm women, ask her why, given the research available, women should continue to feel as safe with transwomen in women's spaces . . .

Point out that in many psychiatric wards now transwomen are being admitted without evidence of a GRC, any medical treatment or any gender dysphoria. Men who dress as women on a part time basis now self-define as 'trans' (thanks to Stonewall's trans umbrella) and are admitted to female wards.

More than 2/3 of women on psychiatric wards have been victims of male violence/abuse/rape. Bad enough, but these vulnerable women - many with psychotic illnesses - are being told that transwomen are not men, but women.

These women are told they do not have the right to feel uncomfortable with these 'woman'. They are labelled 'transphobic' and threatened with removal from the ward.

Ask Stella whether she would feel comfortable and safe, at the most vulnerable and frightening time in her life, sharing a ward with someone who looked like a man, spoke like man, dressed like man and had a penis. Ask Stella to ask her female friends the same question.

I don't know Stella's sexuality, but ask whether she and her female friends would have a sexual relationship with a transman/woman.

She will fudge it, but try to get across the point that if no/not sure then she can't truly believe than transwomen are women. So why on earth should vulnerable women in hospital wards?

Good luck!

morningrunner · 28/03/2018 13:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 28/03/2018 13:28

Where do you live MsB? Anywhere in the S/E?

By the way everyone on this thread is really helping!

OP posts:
BamALamA · 28/03/2018 13:27

I would also ask why Labour created AWS if being a woman is a state of mind.

Research has consistently shown women are taught by society to be subservient, speak less, be quiet and not push themselves forward. It is for this reason that AWS were created.

If someone has had years of being treated as a man by society, regardless of whether they considered themselves male or female, then they have grown up with male privilege and with none of the societal pressure to conform to feminine "ideals".

To say that transwomen need the same positive discrimination once they have identified as women infers that being subservient is inherent in women's nature and therefore we are not equal to men.

Basically, does she not agree that boys and girls are treated differently by society and that this gives the former an advantage when it comes to leadership roles, whether or not they identify as a man or a woman? Or does she think women are naturally inferior to men in this aspect and that is why they don't apply to be politicians?

And I agree with Lancelottie, do not make blanket statements about "all transmen/women". Such statements are wrong and hurtful.

To me, the argument is not about demonising a sector of society who do not deserve to be demonised. It is about protecting women's rights and making sure everyone has a voice and the right to use it.

HildaSnibbs · 28/03/2018 13:26

I'd be inclined to try and focus on the fact that all the discrimination and danger women suffer from, is as a result of our female biology - it's the overall physical weakness, the vulnerability of rape and sexual assault. These are the reasons why women as a group, are defined by our biology. And that's why we need biology - based segregated spaces. I think try to be collaborative rather than confrontational - we can all agree that trans people should have access to counselling, to refuges etc but just not the same ones as biological women.

There was a brilliant letter to the Sunday Time weeks ago from a retired medical consultant which I wish I'd kept, regarding self ID. It was short and to the point that 'demedicalising' transition is a red herring, that gender dysphoria is a complex condition and the hormonal and surgical procedures required for transition are complex and SHOULD be medicalised - that the patients deserve to have proper counselling and thorough medical care in order to make it safe, and that trying to 'demedicalise' it is actually doing them a disservice. And furthermore that doctors are required by their code of ethics to fully understand a patient's condition and be satisfied that that the treatment is the beet course, before treating them (there was some specific wording around this presumably taken directly from a code of conduct of some kind) and therefore demedicalising this process is actually requiring a lower standard of care for the individuals involved.

MsBeaujangles · 28/03/2018 13:12

OP. Am I reading your original post right in thinking that SC does understand concerns about codifying gender norms in to law? If so, that sounds like a positive step.
I would love the opportunity to meet with her and would use the time to ask her difficult to answer questions, that don’t directly focus on trans people.
When asking questions, I would make sure she didn’t fob me off with non- answers, well rehearsed stock responses and if she acknowledged there weren’t simple answers, I would ask her what she was going to do to help find answers/address the conflicting demands etc.
My questions would be:

  • Where and when do you support same- sex provision? (You could follow up/debate specific provision if she misses off any particular provision you are interested in)
  • Why do you think same-sex provision is warranted in these instances? (If she doesn’t bring up the issue of differently-sexed bodies in this response you can follow up with asking her thoughts about privacy and dignity in relation to situations where our sexed-bodies come in to play)
  • Where differences in male and female sexed-bodies underpin the rationale for same-sex provision, what is the rationale for ignoring the sexed-bodies for some of the population? (Point out that the moment a person with a male-sexed body is present in a provision for people with a female-sexed body, it ceases to be same-sex. The benefits that the provision is designed to afford users is immediately lost. What are her thoughts about that?
I think talking about sexed-bodies, rather than penises and vaginas is important as it points out that even with ‘pants on’ situations, there are fundamental differences. I also think forcing the debate beyond crime-based concerns stops it being shut down due to discussions about laws protecting people. I have questions about codifying gender also but it sounds as though she may be onboard with these all ready. I am very jealous OP. I would really love to have a 1:1 with SC!
Lancelottie · 28/03/2018 13:10

Please don't say the suggested 'We know in this country that almost every trans-identifying man in prison is a sex offender.' No, we don't. The numbers aren't clear. Perhaps 'We know in this country that some trans-identifying males in prison are sex offenders and that being trans does not make you a saint.'

Kneedeepinunicorns · 28/03/2018 13:05

This quote from Karen Ingala-Smith is a strong one: (from an article linked on another thread)

It is absurd if we cannot say that women are adult human females and men who call themselves transwomen are biologically male, and that these two groups are just not the same. It is disingenuous if we cannot admit that sometimes our interests conflict. And this is one of those instances where interests collide. A belief in and commitment to universal human rights is not incompatible with prioritising the well-being of women, especially in the context of women who have experienced men’s violence.

BrandNewHouse · 28/03/2018 12:59

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.