Meeting With Stella Creasy Advice Please

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/what-happens-next

LangCleg legally changed sex yes I understand but does that include a new birth certificate with the 'new sex'? Or just passport, docs, GRC etc?
If the wording is change sex that implies there was another sex before so a new birth certificate is indeed a lie.

I don't understand how a change of sex can be proposed in a piece of legislation.

That's not a proposal. That is the current legislation. If you have a GRC, you have legally changed sex. This is for all purposes except for the very limited exemptions in EA2010, which allow holders of a GRC to be excluded. Except for those exceptions, you have legally changed sex. That's what the current GRA says, as I pasted earlier in the thread.

I read her twitter feed and frankly she comes across as a half-wit. Virtue signalling with no reasoned responses to questions. Career politician. I am not in her borough but I wouldn’t vote for her. I think for some women, if they haven’t experienced male violence, or they don’t have daughters, it is easy for them to get the glow of being Mrs Nice and to not think too much about the real risks to women. All that “ trans women are women “ ...I don ‘t really buy that anyone believes that deep down. Certainly I have yet to see a trans identifying male on a panel get treated remotely like an actual woman. Instead there is a peculiar sort of fearful fawning, the sort of behaviour you normally see reserved for a huge (and prickly) Hollywood star.

I once was working at an event where a senior councillor attended, which we were delighted about as it was an area usually very much ignored with a lot of poverty and deprivation, and a project that anyone sane would be vigorously promoting and supporting. She turned up smiley and smartly dressed, and none of us could get a word in edgewise as she didn't want to talk about the project or the issues at all: she spent the whole time telling us, very firmly, about her personal pet hobby horse which involved going abroad for a specific cause and running a website about it.

It was my first education that people who get into these positions are often there because they have extremely strong opinions and personal agendas, are very good at being heard and pursuing those agendas, and other people and their issues aren't necessarily of much interest unless the gel with one of those personal agendas.

I'm sorry it was so frustrating OP.

It drives me nuts when they go on about 'we will keep sex segregation' but conveniently leave out 'but men can identify as any sex they like'.

I don't understand how a change of sex can be proposed in a piece of legislation. I get that it's partly to do with obtaining a birth certificate, but what you would essentially be doing is saying someone who was born male is now being registered as having been born female. That's a lie.
How can a government be proposing to enshrine a LIE into law?
There must be other ways around this.

Well done on getting to see her, and although it was frustrating, let’s hope that she will actually think about what you have said.

I agree about sending a follow up letter, where you will be able to spell out the points you wanted to make without her interrupting.

I would be interested to hear what she thinks the actual point of the GRA is, if she thinks it doesn’t change legal sex. If she thinks it is merely ‘confirming gender identity’, could she explain to you what this actually means? It sounds nonsensical to me.

If someone feels feminine, so dresses in stereotypically female clothing, we can all see that they are presenting in a feminine manner. Why would they need a piece of paper to ‘confirm’ it? Was it a test, that they passed? How can a third party confirm your gender identity anyway? What is the point of having this piece of paper, rather than just getting dressed in the clothes of your choice? Surely it must have a purpose?

If she admits that this piece of paper actually does something, such as allowing legal documents to be changed, or allowing access to certain services and facilities, then has she considered all the areas that may be affected by this, from accurate data collection through to sex-segregated services?

that sounds incredibly hard work!

I think this is progress - you covered a lot of areas and you caused her a couple of moments of deeply awkward cognitive dissonance which will stay with her.

Definitely do a follow up letter.

I just can't believe that any intelligent person, in private, would maintain that line, because nobody can really believe it There was that case where Vince Cable was taped during a meeting with a constituent, thinking it was private.

Margaret Thatcher was famous for not listening when someone (an mp, I think) went to see her, only to find their points used subsequently, in contrast to Shirley Williams who agreed with everything and then ignored it.

I think you do need to reflect LangCleg's point back to her. If it was only about changing gender identity, then it would not matter (and you would not need legislation about it either ) Since it is actually about changing legal sex (and there is no need to change biological sex or even appear to have done), and also the legal definition of sex for us all, then it is a problem

well that's quite depressing
I have been toying with meeting my (labour)MP since she told me in an email that 'transwomen are women'- and I do get that it's hard for any of them to publically be GC, but I thought about offering to chat in confidence- I just can't believe that any intelligent person, in private, would maintain that line, because nobody can really believe it.

...oh, and try and reflect back words and phrases that she used.

Hi Refuse - you really should (must!) write again, if you can bear to.

There is a lot of power in a follow up letter, especially if you can send it soon while you and your discussion are still fresh in her memory. Keep it factual and just clarify/pick up on points that you discussed where you did not think she was listening/understood/knew about it. Definitely set out exactly why she misunderstands of the GRA. Keep it short and factual, but very clear.

Unless that's already happened and they've ignored it?

Sounds frustrating, but at least you were able to speak to her. Well done OP

This whole piece of proposed legislation needs looked at by a biologically female lawyer with the knowledge and understanding to see how this might affect women's rights, and to brief MPs about this.

Also this is an excellent question:

I mean, is she outright lying to a constituent or is she that ignorant of the legislation she's telling constituents about - as a bloody legislator herself?

How will the sex exemptions work if a transwoman has legally changed to the female sex?

ok, this is good. she was adamant that same sex exemptions will remain in the equality act?

so still able to have single sex refuges, all (actual) women shortlists?

I thought labour were all for binning that?

She stressed that she knows the difference between sex and gender and that the GRA is about changing gender, not sex. She repeated this throughout the meeting, that the GRA is only confirming their gender identity not changing sex

Well, she clearly doesn't understand the legislation at all.

A GRC changes legal sex. Here is the relevant excerpt from the Act.

Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/crossheading/consequences-of-issue-of-gender-recognition-certificate-etc

I mean, is she outright lying to a constituent or is she that ignorant of the legislation she's telling constituents about - as a bloody legislator herself?

I do think that some of the younger women who haven't had DC might have their opinions changed on what a woman is once they have gone through the TTC/pregnancy/childbirth/newborn/mat leave/return to work thing.

Nothing throws the struggles that are unique to women into the light more than being ignored when you have issues with any stage of that process.

I was gender critical and very feminist before DC, but by God, am I even more aware of how misogynistic our society is now.